I have a three-way switching scheme (two standard rockers that control a chandelier) with no home automation of any kind. I need to convert that into four-way switching - with three rockers controlling that same chandelier. My aversion to wiring (sheetrock cutting, fishing the wires through floors, etc.) brought me to the idea of using UPB (or some other home automation scheme) that would allow me to assign some sort of ID to the chandelier and just call it from several controlling devices to switch it on and off. Is that possible? In the 21st Century?
Four-way switch without re-wiring anything - using UPB or?
- Thread starter v8625
- Start date
Hi and welcome.
Check out these Simply Automated UPB switches. Simply Automated makes these and they are already programmed to work. You just install them.
http://www.simply-automated.com/documents/Datasheet_V3WAY-A_141215.pdf
They can be 3-way, 4-way or more way.
Check out these Simply Automated UPB switches. Simply Automated makes these and they are already programmed to work. You just install them.
http://www.simply-automated.com/documents/Datasheet_V3WAY-A_141215.pdf
They can be 3-way, 4-way or more way.
Frunple
Active Member
You can use a UPB switch in the way you describe (in fact, that's how all UPB 3 or more way switches work) but you will need to rewire the existing 3 way circuit and replace those existing switches with UPB switches also.
The way a UPB 3 way switch works is the "main" switch connects directly to the load, no matter where the slave switch is, and the slave only operates the main switch, not the load.
The existing 3 way wiring will be from one switch to the other switch, one of them will connect to the feed, the other will connect to the load.
The god news is it's very easy to rewire it since you'll have a 14/3 from switch to switch already in place.
If you need help rewiring it, just ask.
I should add, since you won't have a connection from the new switch to the existing, you wil be using a UPB link to operate it. Only thing you need is the power at the location you put the new switch.
The way a UPB 3 way switch works is the "main" switch connects directly to the load, no matter where the slave switch is, and the slave only operates the main switch, not the load.
The existing 3 way wiring will be from one switch to the other switch, one of them will connect to the feed, the other will connect to the load.
The god news is it's very easy to rewire it since you'll have a 14/3 from switch to switch already in place.
If you need help rewiring it, just ask.
I should add, since you won't have a connection from the new switch to the existing, you wil be using a UPB link to operate it. Only thing you need is the power at the location you put the new switch.
Frunple said:
Would appreciate additional detail on how to "rewire the existing 3 way circuit." My current setup is probably one of these -
https://www.homeimprovementweb.com/information/how-to/three-way-switch.htm
(still need to check which one). Any suggestions on which make/model switches to pick would also be appreciated. I do have power at the location where I want the new additional switch to sit. I am disinclined to go for a "pre-programmed switch kits" as they may not be compatible with the future add-ons (if I get comfortable with this technology and start getting creative later on).
Again, these UPB switches are made EXACTLY for what you are doing. They ARE UPB switches but they are preprogrammed for your application. If you don't ever plan one expanding your network and remotely controlling these switches (and it doesn't sound like you do) this is the way to go.v8625 said:
http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Automated-V3WAY-A-Anywhere-Switch/dp/B00D13HSMG
$80 for two. You won't find a better deal than that.
Now, the only other question is, are the switches on the same breaker? If not, as with ALL UPB switches, its possible you may need to add a phase coupler, but they are cheap, and often NOT required.
Frunple
Active Member
As for wiring. What you want to keep in mind is the "master" upb switch needs to be directly connected to the load.This is easy to do with the 14/3 that will be in place now. The other thing to keep in mind is any "slave" switches, no matter how many, the J-box you will put them in only needs to be wired as if it were an outlet going in, ie Hot, neutral and ground, with the only difference being slaves that will be directly connected to the main. They will need one additional wire going to the master. Since you have an existing three way, you can use one of the travelers for this.v8625 said:
So first thing is to figure out the current wiring, (TURN POWER OFF) if you don't know it already. A 3 way switch will have a 4 connections, a common, two hots and a neutral. The common should be marked but if not it will be the one that's 'different' from the other two. In one box, the common will be power, in the other box, the common will be the load. These MAY be wired out of the same box!! Keep that in mind, I've seen them installed where the slave switch only has one romex in it that goes to the master, but it's common will still go to the load. Once you figure out which box has the power coming into it, put the UPB master in there. Wire it as if it were just a basic switch, meaning you may need to use a wire from THAT box, to the other box to connect to the load. So connect the hot, neutral and ground to the master, then connect the load to the master, again, it's ok if the load comes out of the other box, just use the 14/3 to "carry" it over to the other box.
At this point, turn the power back on, try the switch. The light should operate as it's meant to. If not, go through the above again.
If it does work, you're all set to put in slave switches!
In the existing 3 way 'second' box, wire the hot, neutral and ground to the new switch, you can bring this right over the existing 14/3 from the master box, and use the traveler as the control for the slave. If you already used it on the load for the master, you'll just set up this slave the same as the new one you want to put in, meaning upb links, so no need for the direct connection.
Hopefully that all makes sense to you and you can get it up and running! Just remember, connect the master and get it working first, because UPB slaves only "connect" (direct or link) to the master switch, not the load.
Set up your links in upstart and you'll be putting in UPB switches all over your house within a year!
Keep in mind, however, that not all switches in standard wiring include a neutral. When this happens, adding new switches such as those from upb can be difficult without additional wiring.
Before embarking, I would first identify where power is initially introduced into the circuit...at the fixture box or at one of the switches?
Before embarking, I would first identify where power is initially introduced into the circuit...at the fixture box or at one of the switches?
pete_c
Guru
I am disinclined to go for a "pre-programmed switch kits" as they may not be compatible with the future add-ons (if I get comfortable with this technology and start getting creative later on).
The move from utilizing an analogue type switch to an automated switch takes on a whole different prospective. It does mostly involve getting comfortable with the technology and methodologies of use.
Just relating to the automation technology and what is out there relating to the light switch you have:
1 - The 120VAC switch managed by a LV wire
2 - Pure Powerline (using the AC power in your home as a transport medium) ==> X10 and UPB
3 - powerline and wireless hybrid ==> Insteon
4 - pure wireless mostly based on z-wave or zigbee technology
That and I still see 120VAC light switches today do not get their electricity wirelessly that I know of.
Personally you will not know what you are most comfortable with until you try it and play with it.
Mostly too most of the switches do have the old fashioned analogue features of switching on and off a local load plus today the benefit of a miniature computer light switch that sits on some sort of transport of light switch technology. There you have the various technologies of transport which many times is unique to each vendor (as they all state their technology is the best).
So in retrospect to the above....read here on the Cocoontech forum, technologies forums, et al. Baby steps. Most folks do leave their switches in place and do not change them out every couple of years.
Personally here have liked the automated switch since the 1970's. That said the light switch here started with X10, then went to Insteon and currently at UPB. (even though I still have all of the technologies running in the home today).
Note too here WAF. Wife still does ask why the installation of a $50-$200 switch is better than a $5 analogue switch that basically does turn on or off the lights.
There truely is no ROI on the automated switch. It is just a nice gadget to have.
The move from utilizing an analogue type switch to an automated switch takes on a whole different prospective. It does mostly involve getting comfortable with the technology and methodologies of use.
Just relating to the automation technology and what is out there relating to the light switch you have:
1 - The 120VAC switch managed by a LV wire
2 - Pure Powerline (using the AC power in your home as a transport medium) ==> X10 and UPB
3 - powerline and wireless hybrid ==> Insteon
4 - pure wireless mostly based on z-wave or zigbee technology
That and I still see 120VAC light switches today do not get their electricity wirelessly that I know of.
Personally you will not know what you are most comfortable with until you try it and play with it.
Mostly too most of the switches do have the old fashioned analogue features of switching on and off a local load plus today the benefit of a miniature computer light switch that sits on some sort of transport of light switch technology. There you have the various technologies of transport which many times is unique to each vendor (as they all state their technology is the best).
So in retrospect to the above....read here on the Cocoontech forum, technologies forums, et al. Baby steps. Most folks do leave their switches in place and do not change them out every couple of years.
Personally here have liked the automated switch since the 1970's. That said the light switch here started with X10, then went to Insteon and currently at UPB. (even though I still have all of the technologies running in the home today).
Note too here WAF. Wife still does ask why the installation of a $50-$200 switch is better than a $5 analogue switch that basically does turn on or off the lights.
There truely is no ROI on the automated switch. It is just a nice gadget to have.
As per oberkc, above....
With current three way switching there will not be neutrals included at each switch location.
Rewiring will be necessary to make any system work and no system will be a "drop in".
Insteon would stand a better chance of working if a different circuit is encountered for the add on switch. The dual band communications are more likely to get there with adverse conditions.
With current three way switching there will not be neutrals included at each switch location.
Rewiring will be necessary to make any system work and no system will be a "drop in".
Insteon would stand a better chance of working if a different circuit is encountered for the add on switch. The dual band communications are more likely to get there with adverse conditions.
To expand upon LarryLix comment...while it is true that three-way switching does not include a neutral, it MAY be possible to reconfigure the existing wiring, adding UPB (or insteon) without running NEW wiring. It all depends on where power is introduced to the lighting circuit. If at the fixture, it is most likely going to require new wiring. If at one of the switch locations, it is likely that existing wiring could be used, but re-purposed.
OK, clear as mud as one of my professors in college used to say..
1. If I have to run additional wire between the three switches that I would like to "link" in a four-way switching setup - regardless of where the load is hooked up to - why do I need UPB or any other automation for that matter?
2. Is it really not possible to control one chandelier from three rocker switches - *WITHOUT* any additional wiring - using UPB or whatever?
1. If I have to run additional wire between the three switches that I would like to "link" in a four-way switching setup - regardless of where the load is hooked up to - why do I need UPB or any other automation for that matter?
2. Is it really not possible to control one chandelier from three rocker switches - *WITHOUT* any additional wiring - using UPB or whatever?
As long as the chandelier switch box and all of the other switch boxes do have both line and nuetral wires in them then you can control the chandelier from as many UPB switches as you like.v8625 said:
UPB switches are capable of sending messages called links out on the electric line. When this happens, any and all other UPB switches that are programmed to receive that link will perform the function that is described in that link. It is more common to see one switch sending links to and controlling several loads but I don't see why you couldn't have several switches controlling one single load.
Mike.
