General Questions about Insteon

[RichTJ99]

Mike,

To confirm, the only way to use a X10 remote with Insteon is with a PC & software (CQC, Homeseer, etc)?

Thanks,
Rich

No, Insteon switches can physically be assigned X10 addresses. However, depending on how reliable X10 is in your house, and the complexity of what you want to do with your X10 remotes, sometimes a PC works better.

Mike,

OK, so you can either use the Insteon protocol or X10 protocol per Insteon device, its not a combo protocol of both (the device set as an X10 can also take Insteon commands).

Choice A: Set Insteon devices to X10 protocol, use either a Signal linc / Access point, or X10 transmitter, X10 remote
Choice B: Set Insteon devices to Insteon protocol, use Signal linc / Access point, X10 Remote + PC with Software to translate the X10 to Insteon commands.

In my case, the more Insteon switches I added, the weaker my X10 signal was getting. There was 1 or 2 switches I couldn't reach once I had all of my Insteon switches installed. Instead of troubleshooting my X10 issues, I decided use my PC to translate.

Im a little confused, can the Insteon system respond to X10 commands in the Insteon protocol without actually using the X10 protocol? Is your home setup using the X10 or Insteon protocol?

Also, I want to trigger PLC groups (hit a remote button, my driveway light goes on along with 8 KeypadLinc buttons) - I couldn't do that reliably without a PC.

Hrmm, I admit I am a complete newb (but I bet thats obvious). Can you program the PC so that when button 6 is pressed on any remote in the house, that it translate that into turn on Group 8 (group 8 = driveway & keylink 1)?

 

[MikeB]

Also, what if you bought 10 switches in the same month in 2 different orders. On one order of 5 of them you bought the extended warranty and on the other order of 5 you didn't. Unless SH is marking those with the EW, how will they be able to tell? That is a CS nightmare.

Coming from the PC industry, I can tell you that some manufactueres will use the mfg data + 30/60/90 days or so if you cannot provide a receipt. Others won't honor a warranty at all if you can't provide a receipt.

I suspect SmartHome will use common sense. If it's a switch that was mfg 3 years ago, it will be out of warranty. If you haven't purchased a switch in 4 years, and don't have any extended warranties, it will be considered out of warranty.

It's a pain and not entirely accurate, but it's really not out of the ordinary. You can go to a local store and buy a DVD player, and many times the serial # won't be on the receipt. So, who's to say how long the store had that player in stock? How does the manufacturer of that DVD player handle the warranty if they don't know exactly when you purchased?

 

[MikeB]

OK, so you can either use the Insteon protocol or X10 protocol per Insteon device, its not a combo protocol of both (the device set as an X10 can also take Insteon commands).

Every device can always be controlled via the Insteon address. The X10 address is optional and can be added if you need it.

Im a little confused, can the Insteon system respond to X10 commands in the Insteon protocol without actually using the X10 protocol? Is your home setup using the X10 or Insteon protocol?

Both. In my situation, an X10 signal is sent by my remote, picked up by my X10 RF transceiver, sent through the power line, and finally received by my PC running CQC. CQC receives that X10 command, then sends out an Insteon signal to control my lights.

Without a PC or other smart device (like the Elk panel someone else mentioned), you would assign an X10 address to the actual Insteon switch. So, when you press the button on the X10 remote, the signal is picked up by the X10 transceiver, sent through the power line, and picked up by your light switch.

Hrmm, I admit I am a complete newb (but I bet thats obvious). Can you program the PC so that when button 6 is pressed on any remote in the house, that it translate that into turn on Group 8 (group 8 = driveway & keylink 1)?

Yes.

 

[RichTJ99]

Mike,

So your not using a signal linc in your setup? Just the X10 transmitter? Are you using the powerlinc for the PC or one of the X10 PC modules?

So the X10 remote sends a signal - A2, the X10 transceiver gets that command, sends it through the powerline, the PC gets the command (via powerlinc im guessing), CQC sees a signal A2 & knows that means send Insteon command to turn on light X downstairs (however the insteon protocol works).

I am assuming if you have an actual X10 device (say A16), that you can have CQC ignore that command & the signal goes right to the X10 device (since X10 doesnt show the status anyway).

If the X10 palm remote only has 16 buttons, what do you do to make your 60+ setup work?

Where do the signal lincs come into play? I understand that they couple the power lines in the home but they dont seem to do much else (understanding the access points do work better).

With the 10% off coupon & the return policy added with CQC's free trial, I might give that a go to see how it works.

 

[Herdfan]

I suspect SmartHome will use common sense. If it's a switch that was mfg 3 years ago, it will be out of warranty. If you haven't purchased a switch in 4 years, and don't have any extended warranties, it will be considered out of warranty.

But what if some, but not all, of your switches have the extended warranty? Lets say someones budget allowed them to purchase 5 switches a month. On odd months they bought the extended warranty and on even months they did not. SH has all the sales data so receipts aren't an issue. How can SH differentiate which switches have the extended warranty and which ones don't?

If someone really wanted to screw SH, they could estimate that 20% of their switches would fail and only purchase the EW on 20% of their switches. In fact, a quick run through the order process on SH's website allowed me to order 1 switch with the EW and then add 4 more switches. So I basically was able to cover 5 switches with 1 EW. I will be only able to use the EW once, but I covered 5 switches.

 

[RichTJ99]

Without a PC or other smart device (like the Elk panel someone else mentioned), you would assign an X10 address to the actual Insteon switch. So, when you press the button on the X10 remote, the signal is picked up by the X10 transceiver, sent through the power line, and picked up by your light switch.

Can you assign both a x10 address and an insteon address? In the event the PC died or was shut down that your remotes might still do something?

 

[MikeB]

So your not using a signal linc in your setup? Just the X10 transmitter? Are you using the powerlinc for the PC or one of the X10 PC modules?

SignalLincs are used to bridge the phases of your power line and/or improve Insteon signals on your powerline if you're having issues. Nothing else.

So the X10 remote sends a signal - A2, the X10 transceiver gets that command, sends it through the powerline, the PC gets the command (via powerlinc im guessing), CQC sees a signal A2 & knows that means send Insteon command to turn on light X downstairs (however the insteon protocol works).

Exactly.

I am assuming if you have an actual X10 device (say A16), that you can have CQC ignore that command & the signal goes right to the X10 device (since X10 doesnt show the status anyway).

Right.

If the X10 palm remote only has 16 buttons, what do you do to make your 60+ setup work?

I only use X10 with serveral of my lights. Most of my devices are not controllable by X10. However, if you need more than 16, you can use different X10 house codes.

Where do the signal lincs come into play? I understand that they couple the power lines in the home but they dont seem to do much else (understanding the access points do work better).

That's all that they do. They couple the power lines, and/or help boost the Insteon signal around your house. Many people were under the assumption (understandably) that they would also receive RF commands from future Insteon remotes, but SmartHome announced their new remote (shipping shortly) and it requires an AccessPoint, not a SignalLinc. There is absolutely no reason for you to purchase a SignalLinc, purchase AccessPoints instead.

Can you assign both a x10 address and an insteon address? In the event the PC died or was shut down that your remotes might still do something?

Insteon switches come pre-programmed with an address, they ALWAYS have an Insteon address.

 

[MikeB]

But what if some, but not all, of your switches have the extended warranty? Lets say someones budget allowed them to purchase 5 switches a month. On odd months they bought the extended warranty and on even months they did not. SH has all the sales data so receipts aren't an issue. How can SH differentiate which switches have the extended warranty and which ones don't?

If someone really wanted to screw SH, they could estimate that 20% of their switches would fail and only purchase the EW on 20% of their switches. In fact, a quick run through the order process on SH's website allowed me to order 1 switch with the EW and then add 4 more switches. So I basically was able to cover 5 switches with 1 EW. I will be only able to use the EW once, but I covered 5 switches.

I absolutely agree. It appears that it would be easy to do that, but for $3 each I went legit with all my extended warranties. I guess SmartHome could be keeping track of addresses internally and matching them to the item on the invoice, but who knows.

 

[Herdfan]

but for $3 each I went legit with all my extended warranties.

Cost of business is going up. The EW is now $3.99.

 

[RichTJ99]

Ok, to recap, to use an X10 remote with Insteon:

X10 remote to X10 transceiver, to Powerlinc which hears the X10 command (A1) & translates the command from X10 A1 (using CQC or other software) to the insteon protocol. Since it is using the insteon protocol, there is a response to the command logged on the PC.

In order to have a good use of the X10 remotes, you should have multiple x10 transceivers (depending on your location size). You should use a signal linc or Access point to couple the lines by RF instead of hardwiring (or I guess you could use a hardwire coupler for the same effect). Both the signal linc & access points also make the insteon protocol more stable but do nothing for the X10 devices.

The transceiver is what allows you to have RF remote control of the devices, but only by PC.

Until the Insteon remotes come out, there is no way, without PC's to use a remote control on Insteon devices.



If one uses a powerlinc to program a keylink (top button turns on upstairs lights, kitchen lights, and bathroom lights (example), anytime you press the top button of the powerlinc, those three lights will come on. You can also program the remote to make A2 turn on Keylink top button. If the PC were turned off, is the keylinc still programmed if using the powerlinc to program it?

 

[WayneW]

Coming from the PC industry, I can tell you that some manufactueres will use the mfg data + 30/60/90 days or so if you cannot provide a receipt. Others won't honor a warranty at all if you can't provide a receipt.

I suspect SmartHome will use common sense. If it's a switch that was mfg 3 years ago, it will be out of warranty. If you haven't purchased a switch in 4 years, and don't have any extended warranties, it will be considered out of warranty.

It's a pain and not entirely accurate, but it's really not out of the ordinary. You can go to a local store and buy a DVD player, and many times the serial # won't be on the receipt. So, who's to say how long the store had that player in stock? How does the manufacturer of that DVD player handle the warranty if they don't know exactly when you purchased?

I don't think a manufacturer can use the mfg date as a basis for warranty unless it is documented as their policy. Does SH have a policy like this documented?

Just because it was mfg 3 years ago doesn't automatically mean it is out of warranty if I purchased it less than 2 years ago. And SH has never clarified how they are handling warranty claims and other exchanges from resellers, such as AO. SH has no access to those resale records and has no knowledge or control as to how long somethings sits at a reseller. IMHO, AO or other resellers should not be burdened with the cost of warranty exchanges and firmware issues/defects.

The DVD warranty isn't a good example, but I couldn't think of a better one myself. The problem with the DVD player is that most households would only have one of a particular model, so that lack of a serial number on a receipt is minimal risk. And I bet that they don't sell the same model DVD player in 18-24 months, so it would be tough to do anything sneaky.

 

[MikeB]

I don't think a manufacturer can use the mfg date as a basis for warranty unless it is documented as their policy. Does SH have a policy like this documented?

Just because it was mfg 3 years ago doesn't automatically mean it is out of warranty if I purchased it less than 2 years ago. And SH has never clarified how they are handling warranty claims and other exchanges from resellers, such as AO. SH has no access to those resale records and has no knowledge or control as to how long somethings sits at a reseller. IMHO, AO or other resellers should not be burdened with the cost of warranty exchanges and firmware issues/defects.

The DVD warranty isn't a good example, but I couldn't think of a better one myself. The problem with the DVD player is that most households would only have one of a particular model, so that lack of a serial number on a receipt is minimal risk. And I bet that they don't sell the same model DVD player in 18-24 months, so it would be tough to do anything sneaky.

I originally brought up using the mfg date for a person without a receipt. I have no idea how or what SmartHome keeps track of regarding warranty status. I'm not sure how resellers have to handle warranty replacements, I buy everything direct from SmartHome. The reseller should have some kind of agreement in place with the mfg. They may have to handle all warranty replacements, they may not. I'm sure someone must have tried returning a switch purchased from a reseller to SmartHome? What was the result?

How do other lighting control companies handle their warranties? Leviton? I have no idea.

Why not call SmartHome and ask them their policy?

 

[MikeB]

Ok, to recap, to use an X10 remote with Insteon:

X10 remote to X10 transceiver, to Powerlinc which hears the X10 command (A1) & translates the command from X10 A1 (using CQC or other software) to the insteon protocol. Since it is using the insteon protocol, there is a response to the command logged on the PC.

Sounds good...

In order to have a good use of the X10 remotes, you should have multiple x10 transceivers (depending on your location size).

I have 1 V572A that I get about 300 feet of range from, even outdoors (to the top of my driveway). I wouldn't buy multiple transceivers for a normal house, I'd buy something like the V572A instead.

You should use a signal linc or Access point to couple the lines by RF instead of hardwiring (or I guess you could use a hardwire coupler for the same effect). Both the signal linc & access points also make the insteon protocol more stable but do nothing for the X10 devices.

There is no hardwire coupler for Insteon, you need 2 SignalLincs / AccessPoints.

The transceiver is what allows you to have RF remote control of the devices, but only by PC.

Until the Insteon remotes come out, there is no way, without PC's to use a remote control on Insteon devices.

Incorrect. You could ditch the PC, and instead set an X10 address at the switch itself. Once you do that, you can use your X10 remotes to control that switch.

If one uses a powerlinc to program a keylink (top button turns on upstairs lights, kitchen lights, and bathroom lights (example), anytime you press the top button of the powerlinc, those three lights will come on. You can also program the remote to make A2 turn on Keylink top button. If the PC were turned off, is the keylinc still programmed if using the powerlinc to program it?

You lost me on this one. If you're using automation software to translate X10 to Insteon, if that software goes offline you lose that functionality. If you program the switch itself to accept an X10 command, then you don't need a PC.

Another thing to keep in mind - let's say you program a switch to turn 3 OTHER swtiches on... if you use an X10 remote (or even another Insteon device) to turn on that single switch, it will NOT turn the other 3 switches on. You need to somehow program your event so that the single switch turns on, PLUS the other 3 switches.

 

[RichTJ99]

In order to have a good use of the X10 remotes, you should have multiple x10 transceivers (depending on your location size).

I have 1 V572A that I get about 300 feet of range from, even outdoors (to the top of my driveway). I wouldn't buy multiple transceivers for a normal house, I'd buy something like the V572A instead.

I see that Smarthome has that here:

http://www.smarthome.com/4831n.Html

I see it has a serial cable. Does the serial cable need to be plugged into a PC, or does it recieve the X10 signal like an X10 transceiver by being plugged into the wall? I would prefer to use the Powerlinc USB & no serial if I can help it.

If its too strong, is it possible that I could pick up my neighboors X10 remote controls (I am planning to use the X10 device to Insteon translation via software) if they have them & have them turn my lights on & off?

 

[RichTJ99]

Sorry, one other quesiton. Do the Switchlinc relay devices (http://www.smarthome.com/2476s.html) make a loud clicking sound when turned on or off (or any noise at all)?

This might be a silly question but my Leviton/DHC light switch that handles my outdoor lights (150w bulbs x 4) makes an audible clicking noise when turning on & off.