Getting set-up

[scgrg]

I have been reading A LOT of various websites and product vendors discussing various HA methods and products. This seems to be the best place to ask my question. I am definitely new to the HA area, so am trying to soak it all up. My HA dealer is trying to push me towards the OMNI system, which from everything I have read is fine (either that or ELK). My general question is about the programming and generic setup. I know I want to have alarm, UPB lighting control, audio/video media server, 6 zone audio, and security cameras. If it matters I am a competent programmer so the DIY aspect doesn't bother me. So, my question:

I am mostly confused about all of the various software packages. I have seen HomeSeer and CQC as being popular here, but what do I program with what? For instance, if I went with the OMNI system would I use their PC Access SW to program my security, Lighting scenes, and various rules or would I use Homeseer? If I want a media server do I need a separate PC and control that exclusively through HomeSeer or could Omni do that? What would I use for my home theater control? I am struggling with where the line is between the various SW packages and HW. Make sense?

Also, I hate the Omnipro touch panel interface and the graphics (it is really very unprofessional GUI IMHO). I would want to change that immediately. What is the best recommendation? Could I use HomeSeer or CQC in that case. Tried to do as much reading as possible, but at some point it is just information overload.

Thanks to the community for any help

 

[WayneW]

I will let others with more experience answer in more detail, but the short answer is you use the manufacturers software for programming and configuration. Then you would use HomeSeer or CQC or MainLobby for everyday use. The gray area comes from the manufacturers user software. For example, Elk has ElkRP for programming only and ElkRM for touchscreen and everyday use. I believe that HAI has something similar in that they have dealer/installer configuration software, they have end-user configuration software and then I assume they have some sort of end-user GUI software (such as for the touchscreens). HomeSeer or CQC or Mainlobby could replace ElkRM, but they could not replace ElkRP.

 

[Tink]

This is obviously a biased answer (I work for HomeSeer), but perhaps there is some information that you agree with or makes sense in it:

I have an Omni system myself and have nothing against it, but in most cases, making something work with the Omni means using the Pro-Link protocol and creating a custom interface, which always tends to be more specific (e.g. "send command A when I do this") rather than an integrated two-way interface (e.g. "when this is received pass it along to the other system"), which means that you have to maintain the interface each time you want to change your system. To do this means having access to the programming interface of the HAI, which if you want to be accessible at any time, means having it on the Internet.

So, while I am not intimately familiar with CQC, I believe it is similar in nature to HomeSeer, and if so then this is how I would think you would want it to work: Everything is tightly integrated with HomeSeer, so that making device B control device F is nothing more than using the point and click event interface in HomeSeer to set it up. It is the same interface no matter what you are setting up, which means you do not have to remember the protocol for each device you are modifying the setup for or adding to the system. If the interface is not as tightly integrated as it could be and you have to use some programming skills (which is not very common despite what some people think), then you can at least use a script language of your choice from a pretty wide list of possibilities (VBScript, .NET, JavaScript, Perl, etc.).

When you want to access the system remotely to view or change something, you have a secure (https) web interface, which means not having to install any remote control software to get full access to the system.

The system provides for a multitude of ways you can interact with it, and graphically speaking you have your unprofessional ("cartoonish") user interface (TouchPad), the professional (but not yet available) user interface (HSTouch), and a large selection of 3rd party user interfaces that you can choose from (MainLobby, Maestro), both professional and not so professional, along with the fact that as a programmer, you could even roll your own!

So while I can't give you an unbiased opinion of which one to go with, I can at least suggest going with one that gives you a single interface that you can use to set up the automation in your home - having to remember protocols, command syntaxes, etc. is a real pain in the butt that I am sure you will want to avoid. If you do run in to problems, there are thousands of users (at least in the HS case) to help you, and it is a supported system (HS and CQC) as opposed to being unsupported but free, which you definitely don't want.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Rick

 

[scgrg]

Rick...thanks for the wonderful summary. So...if I understand you correctly and resumarize: if I went with say HomeSeer then I could do all of the programming/rules/UI through your package and it would control all of my security, lighting, etc hooked up to my Omni system?

Also, I am assuming that since you have an Omni system that is your approach (i.e. use HomeSeer to do all of the interfacing to the Omni controller)? Have you noticed any speed/performance issues with this setup for large number of lights or scenes?



Thanks again

Stuart

 

[Steve]

Stuart,

I would like to balance Rick's method with another. My feeling is that most people who invest in a high end hardware automation panel want to use it for its capabilities and reliability. With that assumption, I would think you would want all your core logic and control handled by the Omni directly. After all, all your devices are directly connected to it. Why have critical rules on a software package running on a pc controlling the panel over the network when the panel itself is just as capable of the control without possible points of failure like the pc or network.

Like Wayne said above, the system like Omni can run 100% standalone and do darn near everything you want all by itself. My vision is that the software packages give you some of the complementary stuff that the panel does not have as well as a fully customizable GUI for your interactive control. In that scenario I think the 'strength' you are looking for is how strong of an interactive touchscreen system can you build. In that regard the choice imho is clear between CQC and Mainlobby. With all due respect to Rick, I think Homeseer is a great automation package, but its strength lies in its automation and scripting capability, not in its GUI design. That may change with some improvements like HSTouch, but today CQC and ML are clear leaders in that area. While CQC and ML may not give you the complete scope of capability of HS in regards to automation, the panel and software together sure comes darn close. Now, if you were sold on Homeseer, you may consider Homeseer Pro joined with just a decent alarm panel.

I usually recommend to people to start with the hardware. Get the Omni, install it, live with it. Then decide what complementary functions you want, the kinds of interactive interfaces, etc, then evaluate and choose the right software for that aspect. When you add the software, it will simply communicate control via a driver to the panel. So, while the panel does all of the control of the end devices, you can do something like press a button on the say CQC controlled touchscreen that sends a command via the driver to the panel, which in turn controls the device. And it all works near instantly. And the panel protocols and software drivers are pretty robust so you won't find much you can't do.

But I think you will find the Omni Pro to be a great and very capable device in and of itself. Good luck.

 

[Tink]

Stuart,

Rick...thanks for the wonderful summary. So...if I understand you correctly and resumarize: if I went with say HomeSeer then I could do all of the programming/rules/UI through your package and it would control all of my security, lighting, etc hooked up to my Omni system?

Yes that is correct. Each subsystem (lighting, hvac, security) operates on its own, but the controller communicates with all of them getting status and issuing commands to integrate them together.

Also, I am assuming that since you have an Omni system that is your approach (i.e. use HomeSeer to do all of the interfacing to the Omni controller)? Have you noticed any speed/performance issues with this setup for large number of lights or scenes?

Yes, that is what I do, except that even when I used X-10 for my lighting system, I did not control the X-10 devices through the Omni because the Omni was limited on the number of devices you can control and the types of commands you could send - e.g. I could send preset dim commands for an entire letter code instead of individual devices in that letter code, and I could not send extended data commands at all. For that reason, I always had a separate X-10 interface, but everything security-wise is handled by the HAI system. At this point, I have a mixture of X-10 and Z-Wave, and so that is the other nice feature is that HomeSeer allows several interfaces at the same time, so I can transition from X-10 to Z-Wave as my wallet (or more accurately, as my wife) allows. I also used to run the HVAC (thermostats) through the Omni system, but information such as when the HVAC is actually calling for cool or heat, and the ability to put the thermostats into Auxiliary mode was not possible going through the Omni, so I connected the HAI thermostats directly to a serial port on the computer and went to using the HAI Thermostat plug-in with HomeSeer instead. Now I have that functionality back and I can even reset the filter reminders and do other things that I could not do before.

As far as speed goes, I have never seen any added latency from going through the Omni or through the Ocelot or any of those other interfaces - the latency if anything is in the subsystem itself, such as is the case with X-10. It takes 666ms minimum to control a device with X-10, but it takes typically 80ms to send a command with Z-Wave, so changing the lighting system (or perhaps picking the right one from the beginning if that is the case) is more important in mitigating delay than what will be present in the control system I suspect.


Regards,


Rick

 

[Tink]

I would like to balance Rick's method with another... (snip)

I agree, however I look at the Omni as another big integration panel that attempts to bring together separate subsystems, and is just not as elegant or powerful as a software based controller. Like I wrote in my other post, because of limitations I have ended up not doing lighting control or HVAC in the Omni, so at this point it is just a top of the line security system rather than a home automation controller. Although they have implemented a LOT in firmware upgrades over the years, there comes a point when the hardware won't support some things that they want to do, and so the hardware cannot keep up with the changing technology landscape. For most people this is fine - they put in what they put in and that is that, but I am often changing technologies because my home is a bit of a test bed for the various technologies HomeSeer supports, so that comfort of having a dedicated hardware platform is actually a downside for me.

So... today I would be much less likely to go with an HAI or an Elk, and might look at a Caddx, Napco, or DSC system which is security only. That way, if for example I decide to change the lighting technology in the home from X-10 to Acme RoadRunner, I don't have to worry about waiting for HAI or Elk to support, if they even decide to, the Acme RoadRunner lighting system. Also, when the Acme RoadRunner system is in place, the UI for setting up the automation routines (e.g. HomeSeer's events) is the SAME and it is familiar to me, despite there probably being some subtle differences based upon the technology being new/different. The other reason is something that I have never had to deal with myself and have not heard of too many situations where this has happened, but let's say the HAI system has a problem - a water leak hits the panel and shorts it out - in a fully integrated system you have lost security, lighting, and HVAC at least. If it was a security panel only, then you just lost security. If it was the HomeSeer computer, then you go to Best Buy and get another computer for $350 and get your house back up and running (because you can re-load the software and you restored your configuration settings from a backup).

Rick

 

[jwilson56]

Well each of the disciples of the many packages will certainly tell you about their solutions. I have high regards for CQC and Mainlobby and I myself use the Elk. Its a great panel with a lot of built in power. For my GUI front end I use Netremote which is integrated with Girder 5 which I use for the HA package which uses an Elk plugin that allows me complete control and 2 way status with all Elk functions. Its a very DIY solution but one that is very flexible and powerful as well as extremely stable. My project is centered around a 6 zone whole house audio setup. My Netremote skin also includes security and lighting control.

I only mention this as some people here seem to give the impression that there are only a couple packages that can do the job and both of those are pretty pricey. I just wanted to mention that the Promixis solution using Netremote and Girder 5 is another way yet and one that is quite reasonable in price.

So for hardware I would definitely recommend the Elk and then decide what the remaining scope of your home automation ideas are. Decide if you want a GUI based screen running on touch screens. In the end almost all total solutions will have a 24/7 home automation server as a core component and you will want a very stable and robust elk plugin for whatever package you decide to run on it.



Take a look at my showcase towards the end

http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=2444

 

[DavidL]

Yet another consideration (if you weren't confused already) is that HAI is releasing a new firmware chip that will hopefully provide some better means for an external system (CQC / Homeseer / Mainlobby et al) to "talk" to the HAI controller. Cinemar (creators of MainLobby products) will support the new firmware immediately as it comes out of the gate as it is good timing with a new HAI software plugin we are currently developing.

If you are going to purchase HAI, then wait to get the new firmware, and make sure the software solution you choose is compatible with the new firmware. Cinemar's fingers are crossed that the HAI protocol / connectivity is easier to integrate with than the current one has been. I know from historic Tink posts that Homeseer shares same history...

ELK, being a newer product works well as is today, and all three software solutions integrate with the ELK well with good bidirectional support.

Personally, I would not go with a "security only" system as at least the ELK isn't a whole lot more $ for the base alarm controller, and does a whole lot more in an HA friendly way. I used to have a Napco (as example) and have upgraded to an ELK for my own home. This gives you the flexibility (to Steve's point) to have ELK / HAI standalone rules AND PC rules and additional capabilities.

 

[Steve]

While I respect and don't necessarily disagree with Tink's approach, that is not the 'norm'. While we certainly do mess around with configs, etc, most users don't do wholesale swap outs of a particular technology for testing purposes. And while you can certainly make more changes in software than firmware, the big guys like HAI and Elk already have pretty broad support - perfect no but probably 99% of what most people would need or want.

And, with respect to hardware failure - which can certainly happen to a panel, I bet you could get a replacement panel overnight and replace it very easily with no configurations, etc. I see people struggle all the time with restoring HA pc's back to their normal working state.

Of course the ultimate is a hybrid system with real time backup. Like say you have UPB lighting. And for arguments sake Omni and HS. You could simply have an additional CIM on the HS machine and they can back each other up. So say your primary 'rules' are on the Omni, the HS box could monitor the Omni and if it ever sees it go down it can take over control of the lighting - or vice versa.

So, there are very good reasons to have a complete HA panel along with a good complementary software package.

 

[scgrg]

Just wanted to thank everyone for their responses This helped a lot.

Stuart