Getting started ELK and HAI
- Thread starter rsw686
- Start date
In the attached RTF document, I tried to get the hardware equivalent and added the ethernet port and some serial ports for the Elk. I did not include keypads or lighting. The reason I want so many inputs is for fire, flood protection, and interior door contacts and interior motion/occupancy sensors. The following shows my comparison (minus keypads) but if I am missing items to make them comparable, then please correct me. The big expense for HAI were the expansion boards. As I said, I picked 128 inputs but if I wanted more inputs, the price discrepancy would be even greater due to the cost of the HAI expansion boards.
NOTE: I am not trying to derail the original poster’s thread, just adding what I found when comparing the two systems. Frankly, if I find out there is only $150 difference, then I will have to more seriously consider the HAI for when I want to add distributed A/V.
David
EDITED: Removed detailed prices from comparison.
NOTE: I am not trying to derail the original poster’s thread, just adding what I found when comparing the two systems. Frankly, if I find out there is only $150 difference, then I will have to more seriously consider the HAI for when I want to add distributed A/V.
David
EDITED: Removed detailed prices from comparison.
Anyone with that many zones really should consider adding wireless as well. One wireless receiver can add 64 zones. It really has nothing to do with wires or the lack of them, its just about flexibility. All my gates, my package box, motion detectors, smoke sensors, glass breakage sensors, you name it are wireless, and they all work great. If you go the GE wireless route with HAI, you can even use wireless repeaters, which help if you have a big house. My gate sensors have worked in winter and summer for 7+ years without even so much as a single problem. Once you go wireless, you never go back.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
Are any other factors affecting your guys' decisions? For me, when I first did this, HAI wasn't supportive of DIY so Elk was almost an automatic choice (even though I had dealer access to either product). For me it came down to something as shallow as preferring the look of the recessed KP2 over the HAI keypads!
There are other factors though (probably covered well) - like Elk's interoperability with more 3rd party systems... partly because they don't have their own like HAI. HAI can be much simpler if you just want to plug all their components in, slap their touchscreens in, and be done - and they have pre-built packages for that. That said, you may not like the look and feel as much which becomes a reason to go with 3rd party software anyway which negates that.
There are also some nuances in programming; for instance Elk is more flexible in Zone configuration - you can set EOL per zone whereas for HAI it's all on/all off.
At the end of the day though, from people who have worked with both systems, they've often commented that there's hardly any difference - both will accomplish whatever you're after one way or another. Part of it comes down to a general feeling of which system is right based on just how everything ties together and what options exist.
There are other factors though (probably covered well) - like Elk's interoperability with more 3rd party systems... partly because they don't have their own like HAI. HAI can be much simpler if you just want to plug all their components in, slap their touchscreens in, and be done - and they have pre-built packages for that. That said, you may not like the look and feel as much which becomes a reason to go with 3rd party software anyway which negates that.
There are also some nuances in programming; for instance Elk is more flexible in Zone configuration - you can set EOL per zone whereas for HAI it's all on/all off.
At the end of the day though, from people who have worked with both systems, they've often commented that there's hardly any difference - both will accomplish whatever you're after one way or another. Part of it comes down to a general feeling of which system is right based on just how everything ties together and what options exist.
Much easier than you may think, I use all 6 ports on my OP2 and wish it had more. Lighting, Somfy shades, 16 zones audio controller, zwave for locks, connection to a software based HA controller and a prolink port that has 2 splitters on it to communicate with other serial devices (hai outdoor keypad, WGL irrigation, etc.) Thermostats are connected to a zone. So far HAI has been able to handle it all.
If you make the systems totally comparable, you'll find that they price within $100. I noticed you are adding relay boards to your OP list but no to Elk. The outputs control relays, Elk has its own relays, and most likely you'll only need a few to start with. HAI gives you 5 serial ports and all the plugins needed for various systems. You'll have to pay extra for Elk lighting interfaces (not the M1XSP) except UPB. But Elk has a voice interface on board, HAI has it as a separate part. Both systems offer start-up packages that will save on cost of individual components. Why not focus on the functionality and how well the systems will fit your needs rather than cost. I had Elk for many years and then switched to OP2 primarily because of its support of multiple omnistats and somfy shades.
Also I would note that Elk expanders come without enclosure, just the board. HAI has a nice one with lock&key and a place for battery.
I couldn't agree more with that. Cost is going to vary with your individual system but what is most important of all is maximum functionality. Once you buy a panel, your pretty locked into that decision, so ultimate expandability, not just initial functionality is most important. When I installed my panel I had no idea all the features I would have added over the next years.
When you look at the total cost of a system, with labor, and wiring, and sensors, $100 or $200 difference between panels is so very trivial. What would matter most to me is total expandability, are new technologies being supported, etc. If $100 or $200 difference means a great deal to you, your probably in the wrong hobby, or at the very least, you should probably looking at a lower level panel like the HAI LTe, or the ELK M1EZ8.
I would say $100 or $200 isn't much but $500? I frankly thought both systems were pretty equal with Elk being better in some areas and HAI being a little stronger in others. Initially, I was strongly leaning toward HAI until MY comparison (however flawed) showed that the price difference for functionality I planned to use in the near future was $500.
Couple comments noted from above.
* I would definitely say HAI supports more hardware from more companies. I agree that is somewhat limiting for the Elk but it could mean they (due to limitedb resources) have to focus on fewer products) but maybe they have better focus and therefore integration with those products. I've read some good and not as good as we'd like from both companies.
* The relays on the Elk are built into the input board (if my memory is correct).
* Good point on the HAI expansion board coming in an enclosure except for the fact that I don't need or want the enclosure.
. Obviously that could be a major point for others.
I agree with focusing on which one would fit an individual's needs but I feel they both would be great to have and I don't see either one having that knockout punch. They're both really good.
David
Couple comments noted from above.
* I would definitely say HAI supports more hardware from more companies. I agree that is somewhat limiting for the Elk but it could mean they (due to limitedb resources) have to focus on fewer products) but maybe they have better focus and therefore integration with those products. I've read some good and not as good as we'd like from both companies.
* The relays on the Elk are built into the input board (if my memory is correct).
* Good point on the HAI expansion board coming in an enclosure except for the fact that I don't need or want the enclosure.
. Obviously that could be a major point for others.I agree with focusing on which one would fit an individual's needs but I feel they both would be great to have and I don't see either one having that knockout punch. They're both really good.
David
As I said before, they're pretty much similar, where and how much you pay for additional conveniences is usually the factor. There's no silver bullet and where one is stronger, the other has another area where it's stronger.
It's been a little while since I've used an OPII, but from memory, all the serials are limited to the board. I'd much rather work on an M1 with glides installed in it's own enclosure than an OP where all the boards and inputs are "stacked". Enclosures for expansion aren't a deal breaker, and in many of my installs, I've ordered the M1 kit with the 14" can and then a second 28" for the main board, using the smaller for subpanels. IMHO, there's a limit to how big the can should really be anyways, I'd rather stack a pair of 28's or mount side by side before moving to a 42" personally.
I relate HAI to "Apple" and Elk to "Android". If you want to pick a bunch of single manufacturer boxes and get a system running with no thought or integration, then it's a HAI install. If you need to integrate more 3rd party products and can relate to how X, Y and Z inter-relate and communicate...Elk.
It's been a little while since I've used an OPII, but from memory, all the serials are limited to the board. I'd much rather work on an M1 with glides installed in it's own enclosure than an OP where all the boards and inputs are "stacked". Enclosures for expansion aren't a deal breaker, and in many of my installs, I've ordered the M1 kit with the 14" can and then a second 28" for the main board, using the smaller for subpanels. IMHO, there's a limit to how big the can should really be anyways, I'd rather stack a pair of 28's or mount side by side before moving to a 42" personally.
I relate HAI to "Apple" and Elk to "Android". If you want to pick a bunch of single manufacturer boxes and get a system running with no thought or integration, then it's a HAI install. If you need to integrate more 3rd party products and can relate to how X, Y and Z inter-relate and communicate...Elk.
* Good point on the HAI expansion board coming in an enclosure except for the fact that I don't need or want the enclosure.
Yea, those are expensive boxes, if you buy them separately they are like $50. But where do you plan to mount all those boards? Also, don't forget additional power and batteries for the expanders.
I'm still not decided between the two. I've read the install and user manuals for both systems and modules. It seems like HAI is automation focused where Elk is security focused with great automation capability. Neither seem like they have changed much over the past 5 years besides firmware updates for device compatibility.
HAI OmniPro
Pros
- Light devices are grouped by room and UPD status tracking works (The grouping seem primarily for status tracking so only a few devices need to be polled for correct status)
- Seamless integration with Omnistat2 thermostat
- Keypad has option for integrated speaker/microphone
- Ethernet and serial ports included on main board so less modules and wiring required
- Leviton backed so Z-Wave and ZigBee should be plug and play with their devices
- 1500 lines of program space and OR can be used in conditions
Cons
- Only one keypad design and no LED off after inactivity settings
- OmniTouch touchscreen is overpriced for the features
- Only HAI and GE wireless support
- No interrior night delay or chime setting per zone
- No Insteon support
- No email notifications
Elk M1
Pros
- Board uses terminal blocks and comes with strucutred wiring enclosure
- Multiple keypad designs and the ability for all LEDs to turn off
- Keypad has function buttons that can indicate status
- Security centered with options per zone like night delay, chime, EOL
- Email notifications and NTP time sync
- Elk, Ademco, and GE wireless support
- Great Insteon support with ISY994i
- One relay onboard
Cons
- Omnistat2 thermostat support is missing occupancy settings and fan cycle mode
- Navigator touchscreen needs a horizontal one gang box instead of the standard vertical box
- Speakers must be placed around the house for voice functionality (Hard to retrofit without opening walls)
- UPD status tracking is lacking for linked switches when using scenes
- Data bus retriofit hub required for most retriofit installs and RS485 bus requires EOL termination
- Only 500 lines of program space
HAI OmniPro
Pros
- Light devices are grouped by room and UPD status tracking works (The grouping seem primarily for status tracking so only a few devices need to be polled for correct status)
- Seamless integration with Omnistat2 thermostat
- Keypad has option for integrated speaker/microphone
- Ethernet and serial ports included on main board so less modules and wiring required
- Leviton backed so Z-Wave and ZigBee should be plug and play with their devices
- 1500 lines of program space and OR can be used in conditions
Cons
- Only one keypad design and no LED off after inactivity settings
- OmniTouch touchscreen is overpriced for the features
- Only HAI and GE wireless support
- No interrior night delay or chime setting per zone
- No Insteon support
- No email notifications
Elk M1
Pros
- Board uses terminal blocks and comes with strucutred wiring enclosure
- Multiple keypad designs and the ability for all LEDs to turn off
- Keypad has function buttons that can indicate status
- Security centered with options per zone like night delay, chime, EOL
- Email notifications and NTP time sync
- Elk, Ademco, and GE wireless support
- Great Insteon support with ISY994i
- One relay onboard
Cons
- Omnistat2 thermostat support is missing occupancy settings and fan cycle mode
- Navigator touchscreen needs a horizontal one gang box instead of the standard vertical box
- Speakers must be placed around the house for voice functionality (Hard to retrofit without opening walls)
- UPD status tracking is lacking for linked switches when using scenes
- Data bus retriofit hub required for most retriofit installs and RS485 bus requires EOL termination
- Only 500 lines of program space
Work2Play,
When using Elve with the Elk M1 the Elve software can control all features exposed by the Elk M1. Does it work in reverse where you can control lights in the Elve from the Elk? This would be similar to how the ISY994i works where you export the lighting list and import into the Elk.
When using Elve with the Elk M1 the Elve software can control all features exposed by the Elk M1. Does it work in reverse where you can control lights in the Elve from the Elk? This would be similar to how the ISY994i works where you export the lighting list and import into the Elk.
You can configure the keypad LEDs off after inactivity, not sure if you mean something else. And it is a pretty good comparison you've compiled. Now you just need to make a decision on which features are more important to you, and you got your system.