Google's parent company is disabling old smart home devices

[Dean Roddey]

Yeh, we do the same, as I was bloviating at length above. It's still pretty limited in terms of creating anything like a 'smart home' without extensive user intervention to make it so. And it has various caveats, which I mention above.

 

[rismoney]

Dealing with the optional bits of differentiated gear is the heart of the problem.  If all the H/W is a commodity w/o optional bits then the marketplace is a red ocean implying no new entrants would want to come.  Blue oceans wouldn't exist without the optional bits, but at what cost to the health of the ecosystem?
 
If you reduce the overall complexity of each device down to their lowest common denominator you lose the real capabilities of automation.  A $30 thermostat would do the same things a $300 would - control the temp.
 
Also systems are only as good as their weakest link.  Since I have UPB switches, as an example, half the solutions out there don't even work with them.  This is absurd.   Real automation systems that win in the market, will understand the technology will have to have the lifespan of a wall switch, and not of a smartphone.  People are not going to buy 50 wall switches to have them deprecated in 5 or 10 years.  People who sampled home automation at different times in their lives have seen the ugly side, ie X10.  They feel comfortable buying a new phone for $500 every other year, but not  $2500 to upgrade to zwave switches.  This recent revolv is more significant than people realize.
 
 I am not really sure what the fix is.  Plus with the standards of Zigbee, Zwave, Insteon, and all the others it's just consumer confusion.  People just want simple.  What they don't realize is that if you get the Rachio, the Nest, the MyQ garagedoor, and say Sonos, you end up with 5 apps that don't talk even though they are all smart...

 

[ano]

Also systems are only as good as their weakest link.  Since I have UPB switches, as an example, half the solutions out there don't even work with them.  This is absurd.   Real automation systems that win in the market, will understand the technology will have to have the lifespan of a wall switch, and not of a smartphone.  People are not going to buy 50 wall switches to have them deprecated in 5 or 10 years.  People who sampled home automation at different times in their lives have seen the ugly side, ie X10.  They feel comfortable buying a new phone for $500 every other year, but not  $2500 to upgrade to zwave switches.  This recent revolv is more significant than people realize.
 
 I am not really sure what the fix is.  Plus with the standards of Zigbee, Zwave, Insteon, and all the others it's just consumer confusion.  People just want simple.  What they don't realize is that if you get the Rachio, the Nest, the MyQ garagedoor, and say Sonos, you end up with 5 apps that don't talk even though they are all smart...

Why things are today the way they are can be explained in one simple word, "money."  The idea that a product is designed for the way "you" like it goes back to the day when products were sold to perform some function, and because us the customer wants it, we will buy it.  The company makes money because they are giving use the products that we want.  The company gets money, we get good products.  Its a win-win for us and the company. A few HA products are still sold like this, but most aren't. CQC, for example, is customer driven, for the most part, or at least it should be.
 
If you "follow the money" that tells you exactly why things are the way that they are.  You really have to dig into who are their business partners and EXACTLY how they make their money, and that will explain why this doesn't support X but supports Y.  In 99% of the cases, what "you" want is really not part of the equation. Its about advertising, or service revenue, or partners, or maybe the desire to be sold as a company. But what "you" as a consumer wants, usually doesn't make the top 10 anymore.
 
This whole thread was started because the Revolv service was being shut down. Why? Follow the money.  Was the consumer important in this decision? Not at all, but I'm sure they thought about how to make it least "sound" like they were important in their shutdown letter.  Just follow the money, and it will all start to make sense, and make sure to remove the phrase "because people want" from your vocabulary because it makes little difference in most cases.

 

[pvrfan]

I guess I should have asked in there somewhere, can you point to any example of an auto-generated user interface for a Homekit system? So that we could see how 'smart' it can be on its own? I've never seen one, but I've not been really looking for one either.

 
Remember that the Homekit software framework runs at the iOS level.  Homekit stores all the information about your homes, rooms, accessories, triggers, scenes, etc.  It also replicates this data through iCloud so if you have multiple iOS devices (iPad, iPhone, iPod Touch), they stay synced.  Plus you can give guest access to others (they aren't allowed to add or delete accessories, etc).  So your spouse's iPhone and iPad can also control the system.
 
Because the Homekit framework manages the data, you can use a variety of iOS apps to interact with it.  One of the more highly regarded ones is "Home" by Mattias Hochgatterer ($15).  The following article gives a decent overview of using Home:
 
http://www.imore.com/home-app-program-apple-should-have-shipped-homekit
 
NB the part where the author creates an "Emergency Alert" scene and sets it up to trigger when the temperature drops below a certain point.  (BTW, the author notes that this part of the app was rather clumsy to use.  It has been updated a couple of times since then.)
 
Most accessory makers ship a fairly simple iOS app that lets you configure and control their product...and little more.  Elgato's Eve app (free, even if you don't use their hardware) is much better.  Their web page has a number of screenshots that show different ways of viewing/controlling a variety of accessories.
 
https://www.elgato.com/en/eve/eve-app
 
As far as "customization", the main thing is that the user defines the rooms and gives meaningful names to their accessories, rooms, zones and scenes.  For example, in addition to the normal rooms, I have called "Front yard" which contains a smart plug named "Landscape lights".  I can tell Siri to 'turn on my landscape lights' or 'turn on my front yard lights'.  (I don't; Homekit timers run them.)  I could have a Zone (say called Outside) that contains the Front yard, Patio and Back yard. Then Siri could turn all the Outside lights on/off at once.  Scenes, like "Emergency Alert" are very simple to create.  
 
I don't think any of the apps has an exemplary approach to creating triggers, yet.  As you say, a lot of users struggle to express 'if this then that' logic.  
 
Maybe not _as_ flexible as CQC.  But not completely brain dead.
 
Craig
PS Homekit was introduced at WWDC 2014, significantly upgraded by WWDC 2015.  WWDC 2016 is in 1.5 months.  If it _isn't_ significantly upgraded again, then it's a dead parrot.

 

[123]

While watching the 2015 WWDC HomeKit presentation, I couldn't help but feel that, aside from some interesting design choices (notably related to security), HomeKit is very much a work in progress. If Jobs were alive I wouldn't be surprised if he'd call this a "hobby" (like Apple TV). After reading @pvrfan's linked article plus these two (www.macrumors.com/guide/homekit-101-getting-started-beginners/, http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/129922-apple-homekit-explaned-is-it-available-yet-and-how-does-it-work) I feel my first impression was correct.
 
Apple has deep pockets and an enormous base of users so HomeKit, unlike Revolv, has the potential to mature into something viable. Or it may go the way of Android @ Home.

 

[Dean Roddey]

I would think that it would be inevitable that this would be the case. Home automation is easy to understand in broad concept but tough to get right in the details. I don't care how smart someone is, they are bound to get things wrong. I don't know how much they went out and got folks with hardcore experience in home automation vs. how much they did the 'Apple Hubris' thing and decided to go it all on their own. But, even if they did the former, it's a whole new system and things will have likely been missed and it'll have to evolve to some more final form. And to do so while dragging along all evolutionary baggage from day one, since they are trying to do this the fast way without the time to try things then discard them and try again, and it's hardware based so it's a lot harder to change quickly.

 

[pvrfan]

I would think that it would be inevitable that this would be the case. Home automation is easy to understand in broad concept but tough to get right in the details. I don't care how smart someone is, they are bound to get things wrong. I don't know how much they went out and got folks with hardcore experience in home automation vs. how much they did the 'Apple Hubris' thing and decided to go it all on their own. But, even if they did the former, it's a whole new system and things will have likely been missed and it'll have to evolve to some more final form. And to do so while dragging along all evolutionary baggage from day one, since they are trying to do this the fast way without the time to try things then discard them and try again, and it's hardware based so it's a lot harder to change quickly.

 
You know, you sound a lot like Palm CEO Ed Colligan’s remarks in 2006 regarding the iPhone:
 

Responding to questions from New York Times correspondent John Markoff at a Churchill Club breakfast gathering Thursday morning, Colligan laughed off the idea that any company — including the wildly popular Apple Computer — could easily win customers in the finicky smart-phone sector.
 
“We’ve learned and struggled for a few years here figuring out how to make a decent phone,” he said. “PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They’re not going to just walk in.”

https://daringfireball.net/2006/11/colligan_head_stuck
 
Didn't work out that well for Palm, did it?
 

 
Craig

 

[pvrfan]

While watching the 2015 WWDC HomeKit presentation, I couldn't help but feel that, aside from some interesting design choices (notably related to security), HomeKit is very much a work in progress. If Jobs were alive I wouldn't be surprised if he'd call this a "hobby" (like Apple TV). After reading @pvrfan's linked article plus these two (www.macrumors.com/guide/homekit-101-getting-started-beginners/, http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/129922-apple-homekit-explaned-is-it-available-yet-and-how-does-it-work) I feel my first impression was correct.
 
Apple has deep pockets and an enormous base of users so HomeKit, unlike Revolv, has the potential to mature into something viable. Or it may go the way of Android @ Home.

 
Indeed, Apple has both started projects that take several versions to mature AND let promising projects whither on the vine.  In hindsight, Homekit may have been mostly a defensive move when it looked like Google+Nest was actually going to release new products!  
 
BTW, AFAICT, there is no technical reason why the Homekit software framework cannot run on OS X.  Given the common ancestry of iOS and OS X, it should not be difficult to port.  Perhaps that's a future "one more thing".
 
Craig

 

[Dean Roddey]

You know, you sound a lot like Palm CEO Ed Colligan’s remarks in 2006 regarding the iPhone:
 
https://daringfireball.net/2006/11/colligan_head_stuck
 
Didn't work out that well for Palm, did it?
 

 
Craig

 
I really didn't say anything like that. I said it's easy to understand in the broad concepts and very difficult to get right in the details, which is one of the truer truths out there. It applies as much to my product as theirs, and everyone else's. 
 
BTW, it wouldn't be very useful to compare smart phones and home automation. Selecting one of the former is as much style driven as performance driven, and it's fairly cheap and easy to buy one and it doesn't require any great effort to start using it, and it's fairly easy to stop using one and move to another because the investment isn't great. None of that really applies to home automation, so there would be no obvious reasons to think that the lessons of one would apply to the other.

 

[pete_c]

Just a reprint here from EH ....note: personally it's just an advertisement for Alarm dot com.
 
Why Smart Devices Don’t Make a Smart Home A cloud-based platform is the key to raising your home's IQ.
 
EH Contributor • April 12, 2016
By Jay Kenny, senior vice president of marketing, Alarm.com
 
Another day, another smart device for the home. Some are smarter than others. Some are very smart. Some are the smartest devices ever. And yet, they don’t quite make a smart home.

So what is a smart home?

It’s a bit like a good football team. Each player has specialized skills, but they can only win games by working together – and that takes a good coach. Throughout the game, the coach gets information from players and assistants to understand the big picture of what’s happening on the field. With this intelligence, he can call plays that use the unique talents of each player to get more from the team.

The true smart home has such a coach.
 
It’s a platform: cloud software built specifically to connect and control every device in the home. It gathers intelligence from around the home and coordinates actions to make the home safer, smarter, and more efficient.

You might not see what’s happening behind the scenes, but you will definitely notice the unique features and value that only a platform-controlled smart home can deliver.
.....

 

[xlurkr]

You might not see what’s happening behind the scenes, but you will definitely notice the unique features and value that only a platform-controlled smart home can deliver.
.....

 
And only a cloud-based platform can do this?  Doesn't follow.  Now if they said it gathered information from around my home, and other people's homes, too, ...
Also, the "behind the scenes" phrase is interesting.  Implies that something must be out of your house to be out of your way.  It could mean unobtrusive.  Or it could mean insidious.
 
-Tom

 

[pvrfan]

I really didn't say anything like that. I said it's easy to understand in the broad concepts and very difficult to get right in the details, which is one of the truer truths out there. It applies as much to my product as theirs, and everyone else's. 
 
BTW, it wouldn't be very useful to compare smart phones and home automation. Selecting one of the former is as much style driven as performance driven, and it's fairly cheap and easy to buy one and it doesn't require any great effort to start using it, and it's fairly easy to stop using one and move to another because the investment isn't great. None of that really applies to home automation, so there would be no obvious reasons to think that the lessons of one would apply to the other.

My point is that others have scoffed when Apple entered a new market.  And, in fact, the original iPhone had some glaring deficiencies (no cut and paste, no App Store, ...).  The first couple of revisions made huge improvements to the platform.  If you look at the class structures for Homekit, you can see obvious bits to be filled in.  
 
That's why I'm interested in WWDC 2016.  Amazon has stolen all the thunder for voice control with Alexa.  I'll be flabbergasted if Apple doesn't respond with an enormous update to Siri.  Homekit will then either be showcased or ploughed under--I've given up trying to predict which.
 
Overall, though, it is very early days for mass market home automation.  The 'buzz' around voice control is drawing interest.  Even though that is not "true" automation, that's fine.  "Walk before you run" is still sensible advice.  After being drawn in by voice control, some of them are going to want to learn how they can set up their house to look after itself.
 
BTW, both Homekit and Thread (to the extent I understand it) assume that automated devices will include a degree of smarts to be able to participate in the respective protocols.  A few years ago, that was cost-prohibitive.  A few years from now...it will likely just be assumed.  Miniaturized parts are being produced by the hundreds of millions for smart phones.  Costs are going to keep being driven down so it may be a no-brainer that every light bulb is a smart node!  At least every light switch location.  I think that (costly) central controllers are going to be irrelevant in such an environment.
 
Craig

 

[xlurkr]

Oops.  Meant to quote this line, too:
 
It gathers intelligence from around the home and coordinates actions to make the home safer, smarter, and more efficient.
 
-Tom

 

[Dean Roddey]

Yeh, that's a completely bogus claim. The only thing that has to be done via cloud is making money via the cloud. And it does make it a bit easier to connect remotely, but of course any company could reasonably provide that feature without the rest of the cloudiness. Well, there might be things that require enormous processing, like reducing all of the gigabytes of data they've collected on you in order to sell it for money I guess.

 

[pete_c]

Well it came from EH which primarily serves the trades.  It does typify what is going on. 
 
Isn't it always we (the consumer) want the biggest bang for the least amount (or free).
 
It works the way when a company want to provide the biggest bang using the least amount of resources (and money) and making the most money.