HA/security combination

[Linus]

I've searched for this answer (really!) and haven't quite come up with it.  What is the advantage, if any, to pairing an HA system (e.g. Homeseer or CQC) with an Elk M1G or HAI OmniPro II vs pairing the HA system with a very basic security panel (DSC, Honeywell, etc)?  I gather that there has to be one, if only because so many people seem to do it.  I'm going to guess that it has to do with the larger variety of senor input that security system can use and pass to the HA system, but I'm just not sure. 
 
Simply put, I'm trying to plan my strategy.  The security panel will be the first purchase with the HA (lighting, locks, etc) to come later on.  If the security panel can handle basic HA, that would be great, but the price difference between an Elk and a DSC is pretty substantial, if it doesn't make much difference in the end.  Thanks for the advice.

 

[fabriziojoe]

When I started I automated my home with an HAI OmniPro II. As the system evolved I added RA2 lighting, HAI fob, NuVo audio, cameras, Cartell driveway sensor, etc. When I wanted a more fluid interface I rolled all the sub-systems into an Elan g! system. You have to ask yourself what you want your end result to be. How can the system make your life easier?
 
You will find that in this industry not everyone plays nice with one another. Only certain alarm panels can tie into a robust automation system. I would steer you towards and Elk or HAI panel as these pretty much integrate with anything.

 

[picta]

You can start with alarm panel like DSC and later integrate it with a software controller. Many people take that rout because of initial cost and uncertainty over what they would want from home automation. As your experience with HA evolve, you may want to upgrade to a system like HAI or Elk that provide hardware based automation in addition to security. The main difference is the latency of handling events within the same system as opposed to linking multiple systems, like turning lights on based on motion. The second factor is stability over PC based system. The less moving parts you have, the more reliable the system will be. Although some people can maintain a stable software based system, that is generally not easy for an average user.
 
As the poster above said, integration with other components is also a factor. Not every controller out there plays nice with all available components, especially lighting, and both Elk and HAI cover a variety of technologies. So you may approach your decision by first deciding on the lighting you will be using, then choosing a controller that best supports that technology, and then adding a security system that is best supported by the chosen controller.

 

[Linus]

Thank you both. Am I understanding you correctly that you can get better latencies and a more robust system if the hardware (Elk, etc) is doing all the physical connectivity and the software (CQC, etc) does most of the higher level thinking?
 
Whatever I do, WAF is going to be a huge issue, so I really need to plan carefully.

 

[Dean Roddey]

That's only in theory of course. You can have a highly robust software based system, if you do it right. Not that there's anything wrong with going in the other direction, but I've never had a computer die on me, ever, but my Elk did die and have to go back to be replaced. It's just for development in my case, but if I'd been using it for real I'd have been without for a couple weeks. OTOH, in a computer based system, I could have just restored the system to another machine and been back up immediately. So there are pros and cons either way. Other than those sorts of things, one consideration is that a system like CQC often exposes considerably more of the device's functionality than what is exposed by an Elk or Omni. That may or may not be important to you.
 
Some of it is just that the Elk or Omni is packaged monolithically, whereas a lot of people are using computers that they put together themselves perhaps not in a known tested configuration, or that are not tightly locked down and put into the closet. You can't expect to use a computer directly on a daily basis, install other software on it, use it to access the internet, have updates being put onto it all the time, etc... and expect it to remain as stable as a locked down embedded device like an Elk or Omni that never changes. It's only a fair comparison if the computer based system is allowed to remain as untouched. It shouldn't be used directly, only as a server, it shouldn't have anything on it that's not required, it should be a known very stable configuration, you should turn off automatic updates, disable functionality not required, etc...
 
Anyhoo, either way can work quite well, if you know what you are doing. But, if you feel more comfortable with an Elk or an Omni in place, then the technical realities are irrelevant, just get one and don't be stressin.

 

[Del91574]

The most robust solution is a combination of a hardware control and software to do the heavy lifting. The software/PC that is doing that work would dictate what controller is most easily integrated for the level of functionality that is going to be desired.
 
I can't say I agree with the posts regarding PC's....I have to deal with servers and client PC's on a daily basis, as well as DVR's that are PC/Windows based. There are ways to limit the possibilities (ghosting, VM's, mirrored setups, etc.) but at the end of the day, I've had way too many experiences with PC's developing issues over time, so it's a double edged sword of whether or not the box is exposed to the outside or is a dedicated machine that is isolated from the world, which is becoming increasingly more difficult. There's always issues with updates, XYZ running or the same. At the end of the day, when a failure happens, it's catastrophic on a windows platform unless due dilligence is maintained with backups.
 
If failures and downtimes are critical, in the case of an installing dealer, I know I maintain a "loaner" panel that can be flogged and downgraded/upgraded, with the appropriate panel's program dropped in in seconds and typically back up in minutes. Is that practical for a HO, I can't say, but when a server or Win machine goes down, I know that typically I'm looking at a few hours worth of reconfiguring on even a loaner machine to get everything back up and running.

 

[Automate]

At the end of the day, when a failure happens, it's catastrophic on a windows platform unless due dilligence is maintained with backups.

If you have a catastrophic problem it does not matter if you have Omni, ELK or PC.  You better have a good backup.
 
If you are going to spend the  money on an Omni or ELK you would have to compare it with what can be done with a PC.  For a PC you could  use mirrored solid state drives, redundant power supplies, redundant network adapter etc.  If you use virtual machines you could have snapshot image backups or even configure two PC for hot backup.

 

[pete_c]

Yeah here in the last 10 years the HAI OPII panel was replaced with an upgrade. 
 
I did have a wierd network issue with the OPII panel over the last two years which now is corrected.
 
The above said I have utilized software on a PC about 15 years now. 
 
Relating to the hardware I have had motherboards fail (due to the exploding capacitor thing, lighting take out pieces of it, CPU fans fail et al.  I have never lost a hard drive though.  Today I am a bit redundant with two identical hardware PC's to run the automation software.  I am though today on my second ZM PC DVR in about 10 years now; for whatever reason its never had a hardware failure.
 
Software wise I have seen issues with my automation software making it disfunctional.  This said though I did cause many of the issues pushing it a bit and "testing" beta's of the same software.  Current my Homeseer server has some 16 plus serial connections and 4-5 USB connections.
 
The heartbeat of the home; IE: Security, HVAC, Lighting to me is just function not so much automation these days.
 
HAI OPII panel just works and I never have to really "play with it".
 
I use the software automation today for other things.  IE: recently playing with downloading NOAA weather maps from NOAA satellites; then automating the functions.

 

[Dean Roddey]

The most common issue, a spinning disc, can be avoided by moving to a solid state disc, which is pretty reasonable these days for a straight automation server. Just back it up after making changes. With CQC our installer makes a back up for you every time you upgrade, so you can always go back if moving forward causes some issue.

 

[Del91574]

If you have a catastrophic problem it does not matter if you have Omni, ELK or PC.  You better have a good backup.
 
If you are going to spend the  money on an Omni or ELK you would have to compare it with what can be done with a PC.  For a PC you could  use mirrored solid state drives, redundant power supplies, redundant network adapter etc.  If you use virtual machines you could have snapshot image backups or even configure two PC for hot backup.

My statement was more along the lines of how much you offload from the host controller (and functionality) vs. a more PC based system.
 
The backup statement is true to an extent...it depends on how dilligent you are with your setup....the item I'm looking at is windows itself and the PC. SSD's, mirrors and the like is one factor, however if one of your mirrors has issues...guess where it's going (we just rebuilt a site 6-8 months ago that had that happen to their access control servers).
 
I'm a believer (barring systems where you have no choice) that mission critical items should be run on embedded hardware, with the other stuff run on a server or PC, with the known caveats of Windows and a PC.

 

[Neurorad]

I used to think that a hardware controller like Elk or HAI was more solid that a PC, but my rack PC is pushing a year now without a reboot. If it's a dedicated PC, without updates and web surfing, it's going to be pretty solid.

To the OP, it will probably take 2-3 years to reach the limitation of Elk or HAI, with DIY, to move beyond to an 'overlord' controller. But if the main controller is needed immediately, DSC would be adequate. It takes time for most people to hit a ceiling with Elk/HAI - many people don't move beyond the HAI/Elk.

If it's a pro install, with everything going in at once, then yes DSC would be fine. But if you're like most, it will take some time before CQC is needed.

 

[Dean Roddey]

That also depends though. If you are going to bring media into the mix, home theater, multiple zones of audio streaming, players like Sonos or Roku, and various other types of devices that these embedded systems aren't designed for, you kind of need something that can deal with that. Of course you can always set up some simple, one way control of stuff, but it's not the same as full two way control of those things. So it kind of depends on what you want to throw into the mix, and of course it's not uncommon for the mix to suddenly get a lot bigger once you figure out what you can really do.

 

[picta]

I'm a believer (barring systems where you have no choice) that mission critical items should be run on embedded hardware, with the other stuff run on a server or PC, with the known caveats of Windows and a PC.

 
+1

 

[Dean Roddey]

Though again, not arguing the point in general, but you do have to define 'mission critical' a bit to make it clear. If you have the lights or HVAC connected to either type of controller and it goes down, those things don't stop working. They aren't dependent on the controller, they just provide information to it and respond to it. So they won't get lost either way. Security is a special case since in in the case of an Elk or Omni it IS the security system so of course you would have to have one there. But if you use some other type of non-smart security panel, it also will continue to function on its own if you use either type of controller and it goes down for some reason.
 
What you lose is automation system functionality, which you may or may not consider to be mission critical. A lot of it is stuff that you may get very used to having, and may get a bit annoyed if it's lost for a bit, but not stuff that is going to be any sort of threat to life if not available.

 

[Del91574]

I'll just provide a basic experience....(not my house)
 
I have a large integration with multiple connected t-stats, temperature sensors, etc. Basically the entire toybox. The HVAC is controlled both by an automation computer/app and an embedded platform. The PC failed, more so got corrupted, and kept sending all sorts of data to the controller which ended up talking to the T-stats also...the house was 90 degrees in the dead of winter and only when it tripped a low oil alarm was someone aware that something was wrong. The hardware controller was functioning fine, but the software server was sending improper commands to the controller and then to the T-stats.
 
Lighting is one thing, but HVAC and heating/cooling you need to have safeguards in place to prevent a runaway like what I had to explain to the client....after they burned about $1K of oil in a couple of weeks.