HAI UPB Switches with flickering incandescents and LEDs

dna5

New Member
Hoping for a little help. First post to the forum although I have been reading other peoples posts for a while and I have troubleshot this problem to the end of my skill.
 
I have HAI 35A00-1CFL Master and Auxillary switches throughout my house. The vast majority of the bulbs are incandescent. Although some are LED. They were all originally programmed through PC Access. I have a HAI PIM connected to the OmniPro II and a seperate SA CIM attached to my computer. HAI phase couplers were installed with the original system.
 
I recently wanted to change the double tap functions, use the timer function and change the color or turn off the indicator LEDs on the switches. Through UpStart I can manipulate and edit all of the switches. Everything works perfect..... EXCEPT when the lights have the timer function tuned on, they pulse. If the lights are turned on and the timed auto-off function is enabled they are on for two seconds, flicker and come back on for two more seconds, flicker and on and on. The pattern is very regular and the flicker is very subtle. Happens with both incadescents and LED bulbs. No noise in the powerline. If the timed auto-function is turned off or by passed with a double tap or light command from SnapLink then the flickering goes away.
 
Has anyone else had this problem? Any thoughts on how to fix it. Thanks.
 
I'm not quite sure if this is what you're referring to, but many of us have noticed that LEDs are so sensitive that they'll actually pulse a bit when the UPB switches are communicating - especially in certain parts of the DIM range.  They generally don't go fully on/off but if you watch their intensity will vary.  I'm wondering if the Timer function is causing more traffic on the powerlines while either the switches communicate or the controller polls status?
 
I wonder how much these special CFL dimmers are worth using.  I use SAI standard dimmers with CREE bulbs and the CREEs dim down to 1% and turn back on at 1%.  Early LEDs had stranger curves and would turn off at like 5% but not turn on until 15% but LED technology is trying to keep up with the market and be more compatible with regular dimmers and the technology is continually improving.
 
Work2Play,
 
Thanks for the response. I typed this all out and then thought I posted it but now I cant find it so here it goes again...
 
I am going to order a non CFL/LED UPB switch and see if that solves the problem, although it happens with halogen, incandescent and LED lights, but maybe it is the switch.
 
I got into the above problem with the flickering because I wanted to have the hall and stairwell lights turn on to 80% and be on a 5 minute timer when turned on at the switch. When I programmed that through PCA (when upb switch pressed on, brighten to 80% for 5 min). I ended up with the following after the switch was pressed on: brighten to 100%, pause for about 2 seconds, dim to 80% for 5 minutes then auto off. This initial brighten to 100% and then dim was annoying, but it was achieving my goal.... kinda.
 
The switches seemed to be following two seperate commands. Its like they were following an initial command at the level of the switch (when pressed on, brighten to 100%) and then, after short delay, following a command from the OmniProII (brighten to 80% for 5 minutes).
 
I thought that UpStart programming the default level for the switch to be the same as the brighten level from PCA would at least get rid of the noticable transition. That did indeed eliminate the noticable transition from the switch default brightness to the PCA brightness, but it also killed the timer function. PCA still counts down, but at the end of the alloted time, the lights stay at their current level 80%. If I change the default level of the switch through UpStart to something else, say 20%, they return to that level of 20% after the PCA timer expires and stay on.
 
Any additional thoughts?
 
I'm afraid I don't know the HAI stuff at all; I use an Elk and Simply Automated switches - I program the timers in the switches most of the time; though I have a few areas where the Elk does the timing and have never had a problem.
 
I wonder if there could be a different approach to your rules that would work - for instance I have some in my Elk that see when I turn on the light (garage for example) and that causes a timer to start on the Elk - once the timer expires, it turns the light off - so it's an actual off command; that should prevent the light from returning to the previous level.
 
I'm not sure if it'd help but maybe posting your rules would give some insight to the HAI users around here.  There's a couple very knowledgable HAI/UPB users around here that should be more familiar with the specifics.
 
dna5
 
You are describing some very odd behavior.
 
With the flicker on/off behavior, what dim level are you using with the timer? 
What is the total wattage of the lamps on the circuit?  
What type (CFL/LED/Incandescent) are they?
 
Since you programmed the switchs in PCAccess, I assume you are using HLC mode.
In HLC mode, the Omni sends out status requests messages to all units in a room whenever one of the scenes associated with a room is transmitted.
 
Does the pulsing you describe go on forever (severeal minutes) or does it stop after a few cycles?
 
Like Work2Play stated, I see a sublte pulsing in one set of lights during UPB traffic when they are dimmed. 
This is a pair of 4" LED lights over my sink.  Since there are only two 8W fixtures on this switch, the minimal load allows the UPB signals to affect the brightness of the LEDs.
On circuits where I have 9 of these lights on a switch, I do not see the flickering associated with the UPB traffic.
 
I'm using all SA switches with my Omni Pro II, in HLC mode.
 
There was another thread seevral weeks ago describing odd behavior with one of the HAI CFL switches.
 
As for this:
I got into the above problem with the flickering because I wanted to have the hall and stairwell lights turn on to 80% and be on a 5 minute timer when turned on at the switch. When I programmed that through PCA (when upb switch pressed on, brighten to 80% for 5 min). I ended up with the following after the switch was pressed on: brighten to 100%, pause for about 2 seconds, dim to 80% for 5 minutes then auto off. This initial brighten to 100% and then dim was annoying, but it was achieving my goal.... kinda.
 
The switch is following two commands.
If you look in UPStart the swith pressed on funciton set AT THE SWITCH is probably to come on at 100%.
Then when the Omni sees the switch pressed on is sends the 80% command.
 
When the Omni timer expires it sends a reciprocal command, not an off.
So if you said brighten 20 for 10 minutes.
It will raise it 20%.
After the 10 minutes it will dim it 20%.
If the light is on at 50%, then it will go from 50 to 70 then back to 50 rather than off.
 
Check PCAccess, there should be a brighten function and a level function.
The level tells it to go to a specific level rather than increase from where it is to another level.
 
I'll have to play with it a bit at home.
 
Desert_AIP
 
The flickering/pulsing happens no matter what the dim level is set to, but obviously it is more noticeable at higher levels because the transition from the level to off is more dramatic.
 
It is happening on all my circuits from those with two 15 watt halogens, to others with two 60 watt incandescents, to the ones outside running two Cree 9.5 watt LEDs.
 
I am using HLC mode.
 
The pulsing goes on until the timer, programmed through UpStart, shuts the lights off. If there is no timer activated through UpStart then there is no pulsing. Timer through PCA has no pulsing..... although it has all the other problems I am experiencing with double commands from the switch and OmniProII.
 
What you are describing with the double commands seems to be exactly what is happening. When the switch is pressed there is a command executed by the switch and another executed by the OmniProII. Additionally, when the OmniProII timer expires the lights are returned to the state they were in when the command was issued rather than returning them to off. This seems to explain the effect I am seeing.
 
Is there a way to have the OmniProII issue an off command when the timer expires?
 
I can get a light on a timer to function normally only when I program the following: When UPB switch ON, then ON for 5 min. However, if I instead want the light to be less than completely on (say 80%) and on a timer and I program: When UPB switch ON, then light level 80% for 5 min then I get the double command nonsense with the light coming completely on for 2 seconds, dimming to 80% for 5 min and then brightening back to on indefinitely.
 
How are the timer functions programmed in your system? Do your lights come on to 100% or are they slightly dimmed? It seems to be combination of timer and dimming that is giving the OmniProII issues.
 
Thanks again for your time.
 
dna5 said:
Desert_AIP
 

Is there a way to have the OmniProII issue an off command when the timer expires?
 
Instead of using the built in light timer function in the Omni, or the one in the switch, you can use a flag.
When the Omni sees the switch go on set a flag to a time out you want.
When the flag expires (turns OFF) use that as a trigger to turn out the light.
If the timer is running and someone turns the light on again (even if the light is already on) it will reset the timer to the max time and keep the light on.
You can use this whether the light comes on full, 80 percent or whatever.

That'll work, but it is kind of kludgy and takes more lines of programming.
I wonder if the flickering is a ground problem or a problem with the HAI switches.
You may want to get a single Simply Automated switch, the US11-40 has a built in timer, and test it to see if the SA switches also flicker.
 
Desert_AIP
 
I originally had programmed that functionality with flags and they were working well.... except as you pointed out there is a fair amount of code for pretty basic operation. Single tap turned the lights on with timer, double tap turned on lights without timer. The hickup came with timer plus not full strength (not 100% brightness).
 
All of the double tap functionality I want is built into at the UpStart level... but they pulse.
 
I will give the Simply Automated switch a try. In the mean time a non-CLF HAI UPB switch is on its way. Ill let you know what happens.
 
Thanks again.
 
I have the exact same situation here, Except that in my garage my HAI switch does not flicker, but the switch is set to non dimming since it is plugged to neon tube, else where they do flicker, I will try to set the dimming function off to see if there is a difference. My SAI switch are not flickering. In the long run now that I know my way around UPB I like the SAI switch better than my HAI.
 
 
Regards
 
 
Francis
 
I switched the dimming function off and the light is not flickering anymore!!! the led is flashing but the light is not turning off!!! more digging!
 
 
Francis
 
An update....
 
It seems to be a problem unique to the 35A00-1CFL switches. The non-CFL switches 35A00-1 do not pulse when the auto-off timer is activated through UpStart. Each of the non-CFL switches I have installed do not pluse but every single one of the CFL switches does. This is insanely frustrating because they are all installed now and not easily, or cheaply, changed out.
 
Hopefully it is a problem that can be fixed though updates to the UpStart program rather than having to replace the switches because it is a problem intrinsic to the CFL switch hardware.
 
Well that is annoying! I haven't had a reason to use the timed auto shut off. I just enabled it on a CFL switch with incandescent bulbs. You are right the bulbs flick off/on every few seconds. Between that and the dimming curve I'm regretting my decision to go with the CFL versions.
 
I can also confirm flickering when using the Leviton 35A00-1CFL switches. I had an install where the kitchen used Cree CR-series recessed LED lighting, and any UPB activity, including programming, or even just manually dimming/brightening another switch, caused the LED lights to flicker.
 
I'm going to look to see what Simply Automated offers and give them a try.
 
I have a full house of these switches, and I have never noticed this flickering. They seem pretty stable here. But also I have never gotten the timer to work either. The LED will flash purple (annoying but how its supposed to work) but at the end of the timeout, the light never goes off.
 
My company works in the area of LED lighting, and I can tell you the dimming of LED bulbs is much more complex then you would thing. Most bulbs actually try to decode the triac waveform to recreate the dim level that the user is attempting to create, and then they decrease the LED current to create this same dimming level. This process is often patented so many times each bulb company has to create its own technology to do this (or they can license it.) CREE for one has its own patented technology for this dimming so it works differently then other company's dimming circuits.  
 
Dimmers, on the other-hand, just chug along doing their own thing in a stupid basic way, but of course there is no exact way a dimmer has to work.
 
My guess is that the Leviton dimmer is presenting a waveform that is fooling the bulb into thinking it should be dimmed for a split second. I bet you that 99.9% that if you put an incandescent bulb on your Leviton dimmer, you may not see any flickering.
 
So is it the bulb's fault or the dimmer?  That is a hard one, since there are technically no standards on how a bulb is to dim, as crazy as that sounds. If I had to place blame, I would say that the Leviton should have been more careful about screwing up the output waveform on its dimmers because it should have known that this might screw up some bulbs dimming circuit. But in any case, try a different brand of LED bulb and you will likely see the problem disappear. I use Feit LED lights with no flicker. My CREE bulbs are all in lamps, and are therefore driven with a relay switch. (Never use a dimmer on a switched outlet.)
 
Also, by the way, did you ever wonder why LED bulbs dim nice to a point, then go off completely?  Their dimming circuitry is working as planned but below a certain point, there isn't enough power for the bulb's circuits to function, and it turns off completely. Some day LED bulbs and dimmers will communicate in a standard fashion over the powerline and this nonsense will end. Someday.
 
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