Hardwired Lighting System Using Cat5

[Ranger Digital]

Am, valid points and your concerns are warranted IMO. There was not one ALC switch in the On-Q booth that I saw and their sales staff does act like they dont even offer ALC.

Agreed, On-q needs to make a public statement or sales will decline. When sales decline, support declines and we know what happens then: if a product is not profitable they do stop selling it all together. No CEO or board would stay in a losing deal. Thats just fact.

So, On-Q, state your case.

 

[TonyStewart]

OK, it's time to set things straight.............

Appreciate you chiming in. But for me to invest in a system for the life of my house, I would need to hear from the company itself. Again, I do appreciate your support of their product but it is just not the same.

There is some propaganda that says at Cedia OnQ's ALC lighting products were to be replaced by OnQ Vantage products. HOGWASH!

Is this what you call propaganda? I go to CEDIA and talk to all hardwire lighting people. They all spend 30 minute plus with me explaining what they have, etc. Then I go to OnQ booth and ask the same question. I am told in no uncertain terms that they do NOT sell hardwired lighting. I say no, you do and they keep pointing to Vantage booth next door and say go to talk to them. When I asked about intercom though, they were happy to show me their stuff there so no one was trying to get rid of me.

So until I hear from another OnQ employee that the above is not the case, I have to go by it. Yes, booth people can be uninformed but this is not little detail. A lighting system must be there and supported for many years. I do not want to pull out their system, especially given its unique wiring configuration (as friendly as it might be for retrofit) and try to figure out how to make it work with something else.

Gary Axe, the inventor of the product line and chief Engineer at OnQ would have a heart attack if he heard this said.

Great. Can we get him to come here and officially explain why they don't show and explain the system if it is still a viable system? Note that I am concerned about lack of attention to product line as much as it going away. If a product line is not well liked nor promoted, then demand will decline further, causing them to pull the plug later.

At Cedia, the market is for the top of the line stuff with the most sizzle! Vantage has always fit in well there. So, the sales people manning the booth (typically not engineers) steer people to be products they have that compete with other products at Cedia like Litetouch etc.

Fair enough but Centralite was there in full force and as you know, their cost structure is also well below that of Crestron, etc. So given a choice, I am not sure what motivation there is to go with OnQ instead of Centralite. And yes, I have read this entire thread .

I am copying this to Gary so that he can be aware of the propaganda. But chances are the people making these claims are sales types that Gary may never meet!

Few engineers make business decisions to discontinue their own product . At least that has been the case in my 30 years of working in the computer and electronics industry. It is a tough call to kill a product line but if company politics or sales situation dictate it, it happens and happens all the time. Not saying this is the case now but OnQ sent a loud and clear message with their stance at CEDIA. That this product is not front and center as a minimum, and at worst, is about to be discontinued.

Should you hoard your ALC products? Yes, please hoard ALC switches because I need the sales, not because a product with over 12 years run time is going away.

TS

It doesn't matter that it has been around for 12 years. What matters that it will be supported and be available for the next 20 years. That is the worry...

I did speak to OnQ yesterday and they agreed that this was bunk. Further the next catalog from OnQ will certainly contain ALC. Now……….

You missed a very important point. One day the ALC product line will certainly go away. All things end. I believe I am correct in stating that it will not be anytime soon. However the strongest point is that the ALC lighting system is non-proprietary. Meaning that it goes on the wall where normal switches go, uses high voltage just conventional switches (non-automated) and can be replaced with other technologies like switches from UPB, Z-Wave and Insteon. And there are other high voltage/low voltage combination switches that can replace ALC now (Crestron for one, cost is higher of course).

I distribute Centralite and like it very much. Other products like Litetouch and Vantage are also major players with good products. But the strategy is drastically different. Once committed to those product lines the home can never go back to non-proprietary products like ALC, UPB etc. I like ALC for its ability to be replaced 20 years from now above all other reasons. It's simply the safest way to go. Vantage is very proprietary, more costly and is outside the reach of most people. But, it and Centralite are both great products. However proprietary wiring is a never turn back decision! In today’s economy smaller companies could easily give up and/or go away. If your home is wired with one of these technologies, you are in a pickle.

When and if the ALC switch goes away, it will be replaced by a competitive product already on the market or by one to be released as its replacement. OR BY CONVENTIONAL ELECTRICAL! This is a strong point, maybe the strongest of all.

We "techies" tend to spend more time arguing over the technology than the features and benefits. We want the fastest and prettiest car not necessarily the one that gets the best mileage. I try to teach that the end user rarely cares about the inside workings of the product, they simply want it to match their needs at a good price. ALC is a homerun compared to the others in that market for this and other reasons.

Let's not confuse readers by swapping markets in mid sentence. Not everyone wants the Lexus, some want the Toyota Prius. So, let's try to keep readers in the same game. ALC is hardwired regardless of what you hear from the experts in a trade show booth. Meaning is has the dependability of Centralite and Vantage, but at the price of UPB.

As far as past history, I am sitting in our offices that have over 100 ALC switches installed. None of which have ever failed. Our training center is a very high end theme theater with top of the line found everywhere (except for the ALC which is for the average Joe market). Click here to see a video of this room. Point is that I am committed to this product for many reasons. With past history as my basis I wager that 20 years from now my lighting will still be as is today.

In your 30 years in the computer and electronics industry I am sure you are an authority to be respected. One thing an authority should always be careful of is the loudest voice syndrome! People will line up to follow the person making the most noise. And unfortunately the words spoken by people like you and I are not always correct. In this particular industry I try to be careful to lead people wisely, shepherding them carefully into the middle of automation road so as to avoid the dangers of living on the edge. Proprietary lighting is living on the edge. It’s a gamble. Some will never be convinced of that, maybe you for one.

In this respect I hold my advice to be not only respected but also to be something that people will respond to and make decisions accordingly. As such I don't want to just make noise for the sake of doing so. People will follow me and my words. This is a heavy responsibility. With your expertise, you too have weight and will have people respond to your lead accordingly. Just be sure you lead wisely.

Your mind is made up already. Since you sent this post at 2:30AM I hope it did not cause you to lose sleep. For whatever reason this is a sore spot with you. I respond not to sooth your ruffled feathers but to provide some input to others who will listen and be led away from a fine product without first hearing the entire story. I suggest you weigh what you hear on the trade show floor carefully. We all want to believe in the smoking mirrors (at least we all did at one time).

Lastly, I was one of the original 12 members of the board of directors for the first home automation trade show called Electronic House Expo in Orlando. Today that show is owned by CES and is called the CEA Tech Home Expo. I suggest readers interested in Home Automation visit that show. Cedia is a fine show, but Tech Home Expo is geared more to the grass roots than the top of the food chain. Take what you hear at any trade show as less than the Gospel.

God Bless
TS

 

[amirm]

I did speak to OnQ yesterday and they agreed that this was bunk. Further the next catalog from OnQ will certainly contain ALC.

I am not doubting you. But per my post, I consider the lighting system the lifeblood of the building and need to have first hand assurances. Hope you understand.

However the strongest point is that the ALC lighting system is non-proprietary. Meaning that it goes on the wall where normal switches go, uses high voltage just conventional switches (non-automated) and can be replaced with other technologies like switches from UPB, Z-Wave and Insteon. And there are other high voltage/low voltage combination switches that can replace ALC now (Crestron for one, cost is higher of course).

I have read through the arguments in this thread already . So I won’t try to engage in that argument. Suffice it to say, I plan to put in a system and stay with it. Replacing it with a less reliable wireless/UPB system is not in the cards and hence not a “feature.”

I think all companies should offer the lifetime warranty of LiteTouch. That is what is needed to put the mind at ease. Not spending another $60 per switch for some wireless solution just because the company has stopped supporting it. Even worse would be replacing the whole thing with a normal switch.

My view is that there will always be a cat5 home run system like Centralite. If there is not, I will be happy to get in that business much like the founder of Centralite decided to do, after selling QMS printer company .

ALC is hardwired regardless of what you hear from the experts in a trade show booth. Meaning is has the dependability of Centralite and Vantage, but at the price of UPB.

Sorry but who said otherwise? I certainly consider them an equal to the other systems in all respects but one: they were a no-show at CEDIA and company severely de-emphasizing the product line.

As far as past history, I am sitting in our offices that have over 100 ALC switches installed. None of which have ever failed.

So you are saying that their failure rate is zero with this anecdotal evidence? If so, they should offer lifetime warranty and with it, have a real home run feature.

Your mind is made up already. Since you sent this post at 2:30AM I hope it did not cause you to lose sleep. For whatever reason this is a sore spot with you.

Hmmm. All I did was to convey a conversation I had with OnQ folks. You make it sound like I am pushing for something with passion. It was a simple note based on a factual event. That’s all.

As for my posting at 2:30am and being sore, you are making way too many assumptions about me with too little information. I guess you don’t consider that someone could be in London as I was and typing that in the morning . I am about to fly out to Dubai early next week so heaven forbid if I type something then! I thought I had some information I could pass on and I did. There was no other drama behind the posting.

Let’s put things in perspective. I had read this thread prior to going to CEDIA and was really motivated to learn more about OnQ at CEDIA. I had nothing but positive feelings about it based on your posts. Had the conversation gone differently, ALC would still be in the running for me. So you know, I have recommended ALC in AVS Forum where I usually hang out when people talk about normal switches now, and conversion to hardwired later. So I hope they stick around to continue to serve up that need.

 

[sic0048]

Well I don't want to stir things up anymore, but I can't resist and I'll throw in my 2 cents. I don't think On-Q has ever fully embraced ALC. Setnet is one of the few suppliers that actually has it and uses it. Most suppliers don't carry it or know much about it. It feels like ALC has been dying for years now, but in fact, it is just fine. I hate to say it, but I'd bet the guys at CEDIA don't even know (or care) about ALC. I'd say that is a problem within OnQ, but doesn't mean that OnQ is going to stop support of the ALC line anytime soon. The fact is that they have never pushed it or marketed it well.

Please take this post with a grain of salt. These are just my opinions from a simple DIYer. I'm not in the business so perhaps I am totally off base here, but this is just what I have seen as an average consumer.

 

[TonyStewart]

Well I don't want to stir things up anymore, but I can't resist and I'll throw in my 2 cents. I don't think On-Q has ever fully embraced ALC. Setnet is one of the few suppliers that actually has it and uses it. Most suppliers don't carry it or know much about it. It feels like ALC has been dying for years now, but in fact, it is just fine. I hate to say it, but I'd bet the guys at CEDIA don't even know (or care) about ALC. I'd say that is a problem within OnQ, but doesn't mean that OnQ is going to stop support of the ALC line anytime soon. The fact is that they have never pushed it or marketed it well.

Please take this post with a grain of salt. These are just my opinions from a simple DIYer. I'm not in the business so perhaps I am totally off base here, but this is just what I have seen as an average consumer.

Besides being a distributor with OnQ as one of my lines. Before I went into distribution I was a graduate of the very first AMP (1st owners of OnQ) smarthouse dealer school. I don't offer that in a bragging sort of way. Instead it qualifies me to tell horror stories about proprietary lighting. Today my company finds itself in sole ownership of all remaining parts for that product line which went obsolete in 1995 with over 2000 installs (a guess). In 2002 I bought three tractor trailor loads of all the stock AMP (now TYCO) had.

When any one of the Smarthouse owners need help, they are routed to me. See my pages at www.setnetpro.com/smarthouse.asp to lern more about this system. The history of Smarthouse was one of over 140 Million (yes I said million) dollars invested by AMP, Molex, AT&T and many other manufacturers. After less than 5 years, one by one they all went off the radar screen. Today, the owners of Smarthouse systems (which are proprietarily wired) can either contract with us or knock out all the dry-wall in their homes and put in something else or pull conventional cable.

Lifetime warranties are only good while the manufacturer is still in business. With a proprietary system you get better looking wall switches that are expensive, some of which are difficult if not cost prohibitive to replace with something else. Also you better get a contact stronger than marriage with your installer. Here is the point.

Pick a proprietary system and take the risk and you WILL get some great benefits. Or use a conventional wired system with less risks and less features!

If you folks could hear some of the horror stories from homeowners living in house with proprietary lighting systems you would feel like a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. In the Dallas area many Smarthouses were installed by a huge and well respected local contractor. Today all of those houses call my number in SC for support. SAD!

As far as dependability. We ship a lot of ALC compared to other distributors. The only failures are to switches that the installer let the smoke out of. I can attest to over 350 ALC switches installed by me alone in the last couple of years with NONE failing.

SIC0048 had it right when stated that OnQ has never gotten behind the ALC system. Why? For the same reason their reps can't and won't talk about their HMS automation system. It's the level of complexity. Not that OnQ Reps are not sharp. But let's all agree that with a wide product offering like OnQ has, it's easier to promote wiring, intercoms and audio than it is home automation.

This post may just well be the kick that wakes up the sleeping hound dog at OnQ. But the wheels turn slow in large corporations, so time will tell.

After these posts this may change (a little) because it annoyed some people at OnQ corporate that booth reps at Cedia took the position they are said to have taken. Will that mean they start marketing ALC? I doubt it. Marketing budgets are set months in advance and the next year is already outlined at OnQ.

The OnQ ALC team states that it's hard to drop a product line that takes little to support. The products are simply not eating up much of their resources and are an easy sale as such. When I order them, they ship them.

Sad that Armin got such a poor response from the Cedia OnQ booth after preparing to see it and quiz them about it. Thinking back, for years I have seen ALC on display at trade shows, but it took a very small corner of a very large booth.

I will post any changes and I do know how to eat crow feathers if I need too. But I believe steak is in the works instead.

TS

 

[Steve]

However the strongest point is that the ALC lighting system is non-proprietary. Meaning that it goes on the wall where normal switches go, uses high voltage just conventional switches (non-automated) and can be replaced with other technologies like switches from UPB, Z-Wave and Insteon. And there are other high voltage/low voltage combination switches that can replace ALC now (Crestron for one, cost is higher of course).

I have read through the arguments in this thread already . So I won’t try to engage in that argument. Suffice it to say, I plan to put in a system and stay with it. Replacing it with a less reliable wireless/UPB system is not in the cards and hence not a “feature.”

I think all companies should offer the lifetime warranty of LiteTouch. That is what is needed to put the mind at ease. Not spending another $60 per switch for some wireless solution just because the company has stopped supporting it. Even worse would be replacing the whole thing with a normal switch.

My view is that there will always be a cat5 home run system like Centralite. If there is not, I will be happy to get in that business much like the founder of Centralite decided to do, after selling QMS printer company .

I'd like to throw my $.02 also if I may. First, on the point of a 'Lifetime Warranty', who's lifetime? I think it sounds great and I'm sure it makes many feel more at ease, but I would certainly not let that sway me from one system to another. For one, as mentioned, a lifetime warranty is worthless if the company goes under. Second, there is usually so much fine print in the warranty that they almost always have an 'out', whether it be acts of God, some electrical 'anomaly', user error, etc. Third, I think more important than the lifetime aspect of the warranty from the manufacturer is the reputation and relationship with the supplier/dealer/distributor. Many times a good supplier will stand behind products and can 'make certain 'accommodations' with the manufacturer even if the product is out of warranty. We all know that 'typically' an electronics device under 'normal' conditions once settled in will work pretty much forever. So, I would much rather have the preferred product from the right supplier than worry about a lifetime warranty.

On the point of 'proprietary', you both have valid points. Tony imho is very correct in saying that since ALC (like EDT) is fitted into a 'traditionally' wired home, you can easily replace it for WHATEVER reason. Replace it with similar type of hardwire system, or even maybe you decide to sell and take your investment with you - you simply stick $2 switches in place and the house is just like any other. With the homerun proprietary systems, like Tony said, you will ALWAYS have a homerun system. That investment stays in the house even if Grandma and Grandpa with zero tech knowledge want the place. But amirm is correct too, sure, there will always be another Cat5 homerun system, BUT, you not only will likely need to change out the switches, but the central control panels as well. It will be a very costly undertaking to switch homerun systems. Plus, there will likely only be just a small handful to choose from whereas in the ALC type scheme you can go to another Cat5 type system, any PLC or wireless system or Grandma's simple rocker switch, so there is just alot more choice there.

There are risks with anything in life, and I'm sure everyone will make the choices that are right for them, there is no single right answer.

Edit: I just wanted to add my experience at several Ehx shows both as a visitor and helping as an Exhibitor. I have sen and heard many stories told and many promises made and products shown. Several of these products and promises turned out in time to either be false or products never materialize. There are also many booths that hire 'booth babes' with very little knowledge of the products, or they are permanent employees who are just professional full time show reps that often don't have the in depth knowledge. Of course there are many companies that exhibit that have their top noth technical and management people there as well. But as Tony said, I would not take what I hear at a trade show as Gospel unless it is coming from one of the decision makers or principals of the company. Use information gathered at a show as a guide in your research for a product line.

 

[AceCannon]

Since there are some experts on OnQ ALC lighting here. . . a question:

I am finishing my structured wiring and was thinking about wire termination. I am assuming that each "branch" (which can have up to 31 modules) is essentially wired in parallel. So if I use 66 blocks to terminate the wires, is there really any need for the distribution module, or branch hubs? (I know I will need an expansion 364726 to add more than one branch.) Do I connect all the (+) communication wires from one branch's modules together, and the same for the (-) leads?

And I know the on/off/common lead of the aux switches simply get connected together with the appropriate load-bearing switches.

 

[TonyStewart]

Since there are some experts on OnQ ALC lighting here. . . a question:

I am finishing my structured wiring and was thinking about wire termination. I am assuming that each "branch" (which can have up to 31 modules) is essentially wired in parallel. So if I use 66 blocks to terminate the wires, is there really any need for the distribution module, or branch hubs? (I know I will need an expansion 364726 to add more than one branch.) Do I connect all the (+) communication wires from one branch's modules together, and the same for the (-) leads?

And I know the on/off/common lead of the aux switches simply get connected together with the appropriate load-bearing switches.

You are right a 66 block will do... however the hubs OnQ recommend also have circuitry that boosts the signal and improves the cleanliness of the polling loop signal (4 volt loop). They are also wise to use with longer cable runs. Your choice whether you use it or not. Remember that there is a 500 foot limit for all cabling combined per branch. I would not guarantee that long cable runs would stay clean and noise free with a 66 block.

Check your voltage drop at each branch. If it drops to below 3 volts, use the powered OnQ hubs and not the 66 block.

Also don't forget the version of the OnQ hub with built in dip switches for troubleshooting.

As for the 364726-01 expansion module, the choice of this product assumes that you are using the stand alone system controller and not interfacing it with an Elk or an HAI Omni controller.

Yes the aux ties directly to the load bearing switch.

I don't check the posts as often as I should, so feel free to send me a personal note.

Hope this helps

Tony Stewart

 

[AceCannon]

You are right a 66 block will do... however the hubs OnQ recommend also have circuitry that boosts the signal and improves the cleanliness of the polling loop signal (4 volt loop). They are also wise to use with longer cable runs. Your choice whether you use it or not. Remember that there is a 500 foot limit for all cabling combined per branch. I would not guarantee that long cable runs would stay clean and noise free with a 66 block.

Check your voltage drop at each branch. If it drops to below 3 volts, use the powered OnQ hubs and not the 66 block.

Also don't forget the version of the OnQ hub with built in dip switches for troubleshooting.

As for the 364726-01 expansion module, the choice of this product assumes that you are using the stand alone system controller and not interfacing it with an Elk or an HAI Omni controller.

Yes the aux ties directly to the load bearing switch.

I don't check the posts as often as I should, so feel free to send me a personal note.

Hope this helps

Tony Stewart

Thanks for the info. To clarify:

1. So what do you use to expand beyond a single branch if using the Elk to interface?

2. Since the branch hub and enhanced branch hubs have connections for only 9 modules, do you connect more than one switch in parallel to each of these connections? Or do you need several branch hubs per branch?

 

[felixrosbergen]

Tony,

Following up on the post above...what would one use to add a 2nd branch if the controller interfaces with an ELK or CQC?

EDIT: Never mind...acecannon beat me to it...

 

[TonyStewart]

You are right a 66 block will do... however the hubs OnQ recommend also have circuitry that boosts the signal and improves the cleanliness of the polling loop signal (4 volt loop). They are also wise to use with longer cable runs. Your choice whether you use it or not. Remember that there is a 500 foot limit for all cabling combined per branch. I would not guarantee that long cable runs would stay clean and noise free with a 66 block.

Check your voltage drop at each branch. If it drops to below 3 volts, use the powered OnQ hubs and not the 66 block.

Also don't forget the version of the OnQ hub with built in dip switches for troubleshooting.

As for the 364726-01 expansion module, the choice of this product assumes that you are using the stand alone system controller and not interfacing it with an Elk or an HAI Omni controller.

Yes the aux ties directly to the load bearing switch.

I don't check the posts as often as I should, so feel free to send me a personal note.

Hope this helps

Tony Stewart

In the case of adding more than one branch to the M1 you can use the 364726-01.
As for hubs you can add more than one ALC per dip switch. Just remember that any punchdown connection is intended for a single punchdown. Or you can add additional hubs, always keeping in mind the 500 ft total cable length

TS
Thanks for the info. To clarify:

1. So what do you use to expand beyond a single branch if using the Elk to interface?

2. Since the branch hub and enhanced branch hubs have connections for only 9 modules, do you connect more than one switch in parallel to each of these connections? Or do you need several branch hubs per branch?

 

[AceCannon]

In the case of adding more than one branch to the M1 you can use the 364726-01.
As for hubs you can add more than one ALC per dip switch. Just remember that any punchdown connection is intended for a single punchdown. Or you can add additional hubs, always keeping in mind the 500 ft total cable length

In an earlier post you said "As for the 364726-01 expansion module, the choice of this product assumes that you are using the stand alone system controller and not interfacing it with an Elk or an HAI Omni controller."

Just trying to get all this clear in my head before starting in on my wire terminations.

 

[TonyStewart]

In the case of adding more than one branch to the M1 you can use the 364726-01.
As for hubs you can add more than one ALC per dip switch. Just remember that any punchdown connection is intended for a single punchdown. Or you can add additional hubs, always keeping in mind the 500 ft total cable length

In an earlier post you said "As for the 364726-01 expansion module, the choice of this product assumes that you are using the stand alone system controller and not interfacing it with an Elk or an HAI Omni controller."

Just trying to get all this clear in my head before starting in on my wire terminations.

It will also work with the scene learning interface for the Elk.
TS

 

[Curt]

Is it possible to trigger Elk rules from the ALC scene switches? ie electric blind control, or what ever....

 

[Ranger Digital]

Without the use of the on-q enhanced branch hub you are opening yourself to headaches for troubleshooting. After moving from a plain branch hub to the enhanced, we have saved HOURS per job trouble shooting. Given the tiny, easy to break wiring of cat5 and those crappy little connectors on-q sends with thier switches, rarely, actually NEVER, are there jobs where every switch and connection works without redoing something. Being able to turn off every dip switch but one to see if something works or not is invaluable, especially with larger installs.

Granted, throwing away the connectors from on-q and using real butt connectors has changed our workload and troubleshooting tremendously. Why on-q chose to use those worthless connectors that require a wire put into each end instead of connectors where all the wires go in just one end is beyond me. Do yourself a favor and dont use on-q connectors that come with the switch. they are a headache and give every connection two points of failure instead of one.

Given on-q's announement to get out of the home automation business Jan 1st, i think its only a matter of time before they sell off the ALC side of the house. On-q no longer supports ANY of their hai branded products, even if you bought it Dec 31st. They will refer you to HAI for support. Doesnt matter, its the same product. Of course, HAI doesnt own the ALC products so on-q supports those. Appears their goal for automation is all being pushed to Vantage and On-q has rebranded their energy to "packaging" conveinence items with a focus on builders. Just my observation and based on talks with On-q over the last year. I seriously doubt ALC goes away but I sure dont see On-Q carrying that ball. Its just not a part of their new "vision" and direction. They may not even know what they are going to do with it, lol, but its not going away. Someone will carry the ball likely. Im sure Tony has more light on this.

IMO, ALC is still the best solution out there for the money. Not the easiest with needing a cat5 at each locatoin, but is simply WORKS.