Hardwired Lighting System Using Cat5

[TonyStewart]

OnQ ships with in line butt splices. They too work pretty good if you have the right crimp tool.
TS

What is the correct crimp tool? Is it a standard size and you can just use one of the normal electrical crimp/stripping tools (see picture below) or should you plan on a special tool to make these connections?

The multipurpose crimp toll pictured should work as long at the crimp size is one of it's selections.
TS

 

[AceCannon]

Running the cat5 into the top and then out the bottom is one method. I should have elaborated more on the top of the box method. The method I promote is to leave all of the cat5 outside the box and temporarily fastened to the top until you are ready for it. Your method is nice though in that you are assured that the cat 5 is still in your box and not lost behind the drywall somewhere.

The top of the box method helps to avoid disputes with inspectors. Sure every ALC switch ships with instructions inside that also contains the code that allows the mixing of high and low voltage inside the same box. However, the inspector can still choose to rule against it!

Are you looping one run of cat5 to several boxes? Or is there just some excess hanging below the box?

So I stapled the cat5e to the stud above each box, the wire then runs through the top, out the bottom of each box. I figure I can cut a small opening above the box and easily fish/feed the wire out if needed; use it outside.

Inspector: Didn't run any LV until the electrical was inspected. (No LV inspection.) But my plan had been to leave it outside the box until inspection, then run it through prior to drywall.

Each box is homerun. Excess is looped above and/or below the box.

For the few I did not run this way, the drywall guys managed to dislodge two, so I am having to struggle to find the damned things inside the wall.

So

 

[TonyStewart]

Running the cat5 into the top and then out the bottom is one method. I should have elaborated more on the top of the box method. The method I promote is to leave all of the cat5 outside the box and temporarily fastened to the top until you are ready for it. Your method is nice though in that you are assured that the cat 5 is still in your box and not lost behind the drywall somewhere.

The top of the box method helps to avoid disputes with inspectors. Sure every ALC switch ships with instructions inside that also contains the code that allows the mixing of high and low voltage inside the same box. However, the inspector can still choose to rule against it!

Are you looping one run of cat5 to several boxes? Or is there just some excess hanging below the box?

So I stapled the cat5e to the stud above each box, the wire then runs through the top, out the bottom of each box. I figure I can cut a small opening above the box and easily fish/feed the wire out if needed; use it outside.

Inspector: Didn't run any LV until the electrical was inspected. (No LV inspection.) But my plan had been to leave it outside the box until inspection, then run it through prior to drywall.

Each box is homerun. Excess is looped above and/or below the box.

For the few I did not run this way, the drywall guys managed to dislodge two, so I am having to struggle to find the damned things inside the wall.

So

Do you have a fox & hound (tone & probe)? You may be able to put a tone on the cable and track it through the dywall to the place where it is lost (in a perfect world)

TS

 

[AceCannon]

Do you have a fox & hound (tone & probe)? You may be able to put a tone on the cable and track it through the dywall to the place where it is lost (in a perfect world)

Yes, I'll get it (actually about 3 boxes have the problem). After further investigation, the wires are all (luckily) still visible through small cuts I made above each box, so I'll be able to fish them out.

 

[TonyStewart]

Do you have a fox & hound (tone & probe)? You may be able to put a tone on the cable and track it through the dywall to the place where it is lost (in a perfect world)

Yes, I'll get it (actually about 3 boxes have the problem). After further investigation, the wires are all (luckily) still visible through small cuts I made above each box, so I'll be able to fish them out.

Several of you have asked for the technical documents for ALC. I have just created a link on our site that allows you to download these for ALC, the Elk M1, HAI Omni and much more.

All I ask is that you get a password to our site, keep the email address current and never unsubscribe from our newsletter. In exhange we will continue to add more docs to this page as they become available.

Note that if your email address bounces back or you unsubscribe your access to the downloads section automatically ends.

Here is the link

Some of you are pretty good at writing your own code. So I have placed the protocols for numerous systems in this section. And I have placed a lot of Microsoft Visio stencils and drawings for you use when creating your own documents.

Some of the docs are old and some are still missing. But most are current. Send me a reply for something that you were looking for and I will see if we have it or can get it.

Tony Stewart

 

[broconne]

Early on in this thread it was mentioned that you could use other scene switches besides those made by OnQ/ALC.

Has anyone done this?

Litetouch was mentioned as a possibility, is that powered over cat5? Or would a power run be needed too? What is the price range on the scene switches for Litetouch?

Colorado VNET looks like it is completely powered by CAT5 and some interesting choices. Anybody found pricing on their switches?

I like OnQ/ALC a lot - but as most note, the scene switches are not attractive.

 

[TonyStewart]

Early on in this thread it was mentioned that you could use other scene switches besides those made by OnQ/ALC.

Has anyone done this?

Litetouch was mentioned as a possibility, is that powered over cat5? Or would a power run be needed too? What is the price range on the scene switches for Litetouch?

Colorado VNET looks like it is completely powered by CAT5 and some interesting choices. Anybody found pricing on their switches?

I like OnQ/ALC a lot - but as most note, the scene switches are not attractive.

If you are looking for a scene switch that can talk over the cat5 using anything other than serial communications and still be compatible with the ELk M1 or HAI Omni controllers, I am not aware of any. Somebody else may offer some advice on that. But.......

Litetouch does have a scene switch that works over cat5 and can be used with an Elk M1 or HAI Omni. It does NOT require their (Litetouch) proprietary interface. With one cat5 cable you can get versions of 1 to 6 buttons. You can also get them in a variety of colors, button styles, engraved etc. It uses contact closures to interface with the controller and even has some LED's that can be lit (using controller outputs).

However, you will NOT find them in their catalog. Over the years, we have sold some of them and can special order them. There are some things that should be discussed when using them so give us a call and we can discuss. 1-864-663-0011.

I am under the impression that one day Vantage scene switches will interface with other automation controllers, but the R&D of that project is only in the planning stage. I would not expect anything in 2009 on that.

Tony

 

[AceCannon]

Litetouch does have a scene switch that works over cat5 and can be used with an Elk M1 or HAI Omni. It does NOT require their (Litetouch) proprietary interface. With one cat5 cable you can get versions of 1 to 6 buttons. You can also get them in a variety of colors, button styles, engraved etc. It uses contact closures to interface with the controller and even has some LED's that can be lit (using controller outputs).

However, you will NOT find them in their catalog. Over the years, we have sold some of them and can special order them. There are some things that should be discussed when using them so give us a call and we can discuss. 1-864-663-0011.

Interesting. I ran a single run of cat5e to my scene switch locations while I was thinking about the two conductors needed for ACL comm. So (for Litetouch, or other dry contact switches) if a switch used 1 lead as neg, presumably you could use the other 7 for switches. I assume, then, that any LED indicators would take away a conductor for a switch. .. ?

I should've run more cat5e. I knew it. Only 15,000 feet in my house under construction.

 

[TonyStewart]

Litetouch does have a scene switch that works over cat5 and can be used with an Elk M1 or HAI Omni. It does NOT require their (Litetouch) proprietary interface. With one cat5 cable you can get versions of 1 to 6 buttons. You can also get them in a variety of colors, button styles, engraved etc. It uses contact closures to interface with the controller and even has some LED's that can be lit (using controller outputs).

However, you will NOT find them in their catalog. Over the years, we have sold some of them and can special order them. There are some things that should be discussed when using them so give us a call and we can discuss. 1-864-663-0011.

Interesting. I ran a single run of cat5e to my scene switch locations while I was thinking about the two conductors needed for ACL comm. So (for Litetouch, or other dry contact switches) if a switch used 1 lead as neg, presumably you could use the other 7 for switches. I assume, then, that any LED indicators would take away a conductor for a switch. .. ?

I should've run more cat5e. I knew it. Only 15,000 feet in my house under construction.

Wire, wire and more wire! My house has miles of cables and it is never enough. the wrong type or it's not in the right place. And worse of all, you can't pull more cable without your wife knowing it! She always says "surely you don't have to pull more cable do You????????"

The M1 and the Omni controllers all use shared commons for the zone inputs. Other controllers may have isolated commons so be alert to that issue.

As for the LED's they too use a shared and different common (not the same common as the zone inputs). One cat5 (8 conductors) could support 4 buttons
4 switches and 1 common = 5 conductors and
2 LED's (2 LED's and one common = 3 conductors
This is a total of 8 conductors.

Also note that the polarity of the LED's is critical. Some dry contact closure switches will have the LED's installed opposite from what the M1 or Omni 12VDC outputs are.

Second issue is to be sure of the voltage of the LED on the switch. If is does not have a resistor with it, it is normally a 1.7VDC LED and attaching 12VDC to it will let the smoke out!!!!!

Finally be Alert to how many 12VDC outputs your controller supplies/can be expanded to. And be alert to the fact that the M1 supports a max of 50MA on each output and the Omni a limit of 100ma for each output. One LED will typically draw less than 20MA. But..... Many "scenes" are shared across multiple scene switch locations. Example "Yards Litghts on/off". So you must consider the total load.

For a comparison of controllers and their distinct capabilities, here is a chart we comprised. Note the the OnQ HMS on the chart(s) are no longer available and the chart has not been updated for several months. Whiel some of the more recents addtiions to each controller may be left off, for the most part all data is accurate.

Click here for the chart

 

[anisbet]

why does it seem like such a few number of people use ALC or another hardwire (are there others?) scheme for HA? It would seem like going UPB/Z-wave would provide more options/info since more people use it...

I'm building a new house soon and I'd rather not run cat5 to all my switches if I'm not going to use it...

 

[Steve]

ALC does not have the same install #'s as UPB/Zwave, etc because of the difficulty in wiring it for retrofit, so it wind up being used mostly in new construction but then it competes with central systems such as Centralite, so I guess its kind of a niche system.

But, the only thing you can say for certain is that hardwire will be 100% reliable compared to any other system PLC or wireless. Sure there is a high probability that something like UPB will work great for you, but you never know. Even if it looks good when first installing, something can happen later - something as innocent as installing a new pool pump. There are at least a few people here that have issues, myself included and I have even thought about trying to run Cat5 after the fact. If I ever built a new house again or had an opportunity, there would not be a shred of doubt in my mind that I would put Cat5 by each switch whether I used it or not.

I can't emphasize enough how sorry you will be if you try to save a few $ during prewire and not wiring everything you can, then turn around and want it later when its near impossible or extremely costly to get wires in. If you are not going to use a central hardwired system I would strongly recommend putting the Cat5's to the switches. Even if you never use them, at least they are there if you need them. You can't predict the future and what will happen so you need to take the opportunity to futureproof when you can.

 

[sic0048]

why does it seem like such a few number of people use ALC or another hardwire (are there others?) scheme for HA? It would seem like going UPB/Z-wave would provide more options/info since more people use it...

I'm building a new house soon and I'd rather not run cat5 to all my switches if I'm not going to use it...

I think so few people use it because OnQ has done a TERRIBLE job in marketing it. They normally don't even show it in their booth at the big trade shows. So if installers and potential users don't know about it, they can't decide to use it. OnQ has instead focused on other types of lighting systems at the shows and in their marketing.

In fact I only know two suppliers that actually carry it in stock (Setnet and Worthington). I assume any company that carries On-Q can probably order it, but their sales people don't know anything about it either. Now that said, ALC lighting has been around a long time and On-Q has always done this. So I'm not worried about On-Q suddenly stopping production of the ALC line. It's just for some reason they have never put a lot of effort into telling people about it.

Regarding running wiring, personally I think cat5e is cheap and it makes no sense NOT to run it if you even THINK you might do ALC. For the cost of a box (or two if the house is huge) of Cat5e wire, some stick on clips (to safely anchor the cat5e wire on top of the electric box), and specifying deep electric boxes in the construction (and this is just for convinence - people have made it work in normal sized boxes, it's just a tight fit), you take away the possibility of limiting your choices in future.

Most other hardwire systems generally require combining all the loads in a central load cabinet. So the entire wiring of the house is handled differently. If you want to go with that type of system, you have to decide from the beginning and there is no going back. At least with the ALC option, you can wire normally and simply add a single cat5e wire to each switch and decide later which system you might want to go with.

 

[TonyStewart]

why does it seem like such a few number of people use ALC or another hardwire (are there others?) scheme for HA? It would seem like going UPB/Z-wave would provide more options/info since more people use it...

I'm building a new house soon and I'd rather not run cat5 to all my switches if I'm not going to use it...

I think so few people use it because OnQ has done a TERRIBLE job in marketing it. They normally don't even show it in their booth at the big trade shows. So if installers and potential users don't know about it, they can't decide to use it. OnQ has instead focused on other types of lighting systems at the shows and in their marketing.

In fact I only know two suppliers that actually carry it in stock (Setnet and Worthington). I assume any company that carries On-Q can probably order it, but their sales people don't know anything about it either. Now that said, ALC lighting has been around a long time and On-Q has always done this. So I'm not worried about On-Q suddenly stopping production of the ALC line. It's just for some reason they have never put a lot of effort into telling people about it.

Regarding running wiring, personally I think cat5e is cheap and it makes no sense NOT to run it if you even THINK you might do ALC. For the cost of a box (or two if the house is huge) of Cat5e wire, some stick on clips (to safely anchor the cat5e wire on top of the electric box), and specifying deep electric boxes in the construction, you take away the possibility of limiting your choices in future.

Most other hardwire systems generally require combining all the loads in a central load cabinet. So the entire wiring of the house is handled differently. If you want to go with that type of system, you have to decide from the beginning and there is no going back. At least with the ALC option, you can wire normally and simply add a single cat5e wire to each switch and decide later which system you might want to go with.

You are very wise!
We put together a hand full of ALC related docs. A password with VIP access is required to download as well as an agreement to stay on our email mailing list. You can get these here, and Here is the link to the docs.

Hope this helps

TS

 

[CollinR]

What I don't get is why everyone seems to be wanting to switch the switch instead of switch the load, doesn't an ALC device like the X-10 XPDF seem more logical to anyone else? I just don't see why we even bother running high voltage to the switches at all, it's extra wire, extra failure points. The only thing is it's the way we have done it for ages. LV momentary switches on Cat5 would be quite easy to implement and all this 3 way / whatever way would be a non-issue as you are switching the loads directly independent of any switch. You could even implement some level of access controls that you cannot right now, you can have this button do X during the day and Y by night neither of which are physically attached to that switch. Same goes for between 0100 and 0600 you cannot brighten a specific light past 60% output. This would be rather tough to do currently but easy of you are switching at the load.

I guess I just don't get it.

Oh wait you can do that today On/Off with simple relays and momentary buttons, it's the dimming that makes everything complicated. I don't blame ya there I like my dimming and scene controls as much as the next guy.

 

[anisbet]

Regarding running wiring, personally I think cat5e is cheap and it makes no sense NOT to run it if you even THINK you might do ALC. For the cost of a box (or two if the house is huge) of Cat5e wire, some stick on clips (to safely anchor the cat5e wire on top of the electric box), and specifying deep electric boxes in the construction (and this is just for convinence - people have made it work in normal sized boxes, it's just a tight fit), you take away the possibility of limiting your choices in future.

Most other hardwire systems generally require combining all the loads in a central load cabinet. So the entire wiring of the house is handled differently. If you want to go with that type of system, you have to decide from the beginning and there is no going back. At least with the ALC option, you can wire normally and simply add a single cat5e wire to each switch and decide later which system you might want to go with.

I think you just reassured me to do the cat5 wiring Assuming I get pre-approved for our loan (w/in the next day or so I guess) I'm gonna order a box or two of cat5e!

You are very wise!
We put together a hand full of ALC related docs. A password with VIP access is required to download as well as an agreement to stay on our email mailing list. You can get these here, and Here is the link to the docs.

Hope this helps

TS

yeah I registered at home and such but I can't access the site from work, lol... I guess I need to download a bunch and bring them in for reading material