Having UPB Signal Troubles

[bfisher]

I usually wouldn't do this for any device that reads above 20 Lesters in signal strength. I do this for the units that either can't be found or weak signals. The other time I do this is to try to make sure the noise is out of phase form the failing unit if possible. Granted for an entire home system this may not be very practical at all but if you do try it and find some impovement I hope you'll let us know about it.

Are people able to communicate with devices in other phases when they don't have a phase coupler?

Neil

absolutely. I went ~2 years without a coupler without issue. I missed a signal once and decided it was time to buy a coupler (I want 100% reliability). I believe the new LCD tv was causing the signal to miss when it was on (only for the outlet in the same room (on the same circuit).

I felt the $70 for the coupler was cheap insurance so it wouldn't happen again... and it hasn't.

 

[AutomatedOutlet]

I also don't have a coupler in my house. The signal is definitely low on the other phase but at this point it hasn't been an issue. I will probably install one just to future proof my installation though.

That being said, for professional installations, we always recommend the coupler. It's cheap insurance for when the customer installs something that might affect the signal strength.

 

[LightenUP]

Oh boy, maybe it's just me but it seems that the issue of phase aligning isn't attractive to most of you. I know the couplers are effective but I swear to you, moving the breakers around is even more of an improvement. We find ourselves doing it often in the applications we do.

By code the couplers are supposed to be in an external box outside of the panels, and they cost, moving breakers is free and a better outcome. I concede to the fact that if you are into a large installation a coupler or repeater is the way to go. Just on some with maybe a dozen or so, try this technique and you'll be surprised at how easy it is and how effective it is.

 

[Steve]

I concede I am not an electrician or anything, but I can see this phase aligning as difficult and potentially causing problems down the line. By difficult, I mean trying to get all of your HA devices on 1 phase. I can see that as near impossible if you have devices scattered all throughout the house on all different circuits. And then you may need to move a breaker more than 1 position up or down and while granted, most panels are not neatly wired like structured panels, I believe many do have the wires already cut to proper length, etc and rearranging the breakers without changing (like maybe shortening) the wire can potentially lead to a big mess. I was also under the impression (and I may/probably be totally wrong), that the phases were at least somewhat balanced, at least I know they have to be on generator outputs, so in that case you may wind up with most large loads on one phase. You would also have to relabel all the circuits so the homeowner is not all confused by rearranged breakers. And what happens if you add a device down the road and that circuit happens to be on the opposite phase - you go back and have to play with breakers again? I don't know, it sure seems easier and cheaper in the long run to just put in a coupler 1 time and be done with it. I understand your concept and it may make sense in some smaller locations but I don't think it is the best solution for the customer in most situations in the long run.

 

[AutomatedOutlet]

Oh boy, maybe it's just me but it seems that the issue of phase aligning isn't attractive to most of you. I know the couplers are effective but I swear to you, moving the breakers around is even more of an improvement. We find ourselves doing it often in the applications we do.

By code the couplers are supposed to be in an external box outside of the panels, and they cost, moving breakers is free and a better outcome. I concede to the fact that if you are into a large installation a coupler or repeater is the way to go. Just on some with maybe a dozen or so, try this technique and you'll be surprised at how easy it is and how effective it is.

I agree with you that this is an effective way to go. In fact, we did that here in the office until we just had too many devices to have all on one phase. For most people, if you are automating a house, you'll never be able to get all of the devices on a single phase. With just a few devices, yes.

 

[LightenUP]

I agree that it would not make since if doing more than a dozen devices or so unless if one circuit powers a few of them. I also completely agree not to do anything negative to the panel that might make it out of balance or disorganized. The main reason I bring it up is to combat noise. The new GenII has helped but I still make this a practice. I have only done a few 50+ unit installations. I would not hesitate to possibly move a few breakers and add a coupler. This has been succesful for us because we are doing small applications and running into noise often and couplers bridge the noise to both phases. Collective my company is putting UPB into approx. 70 to 80 homes each day. With the potential for add-ons we must make sure the systems are dependable. Most of the time neither a coupler or alignment is necessary however even with X-10 it has made a huge difference with PLCs.

 

[tpboyce]

When considering doing phase alignment, take into consideration that most residential wiring relies on a shared neutral for opposing phases. What this means is that two rooms close together but exist on seperate circuits will go up in the same conduit with two hots and one neutral. This relies on the principal that AC current is a sine wave and when one hot phase is pulsing positive, the other phase (thus the name phase) is pulsing negative. The neutral is carrying very little load back. Now, take two rooms full of lights that are sharing a neutral. Say they are both on 15 amp circuits and running 12.5 amps maybe and the neutral is sized accordingly. If you push one of the breakers up a spot, both hots will be on the same phase and your neutral is now carrying the equivelant of a 25 amp circuit. The wire is going to get hot! Some environements do not have shared neutrals, but considering the cost of the extra copper and possibly having to run another conduit if the maximum number of wires is in the tube or junction box, it is very much common place in residential except in areas where code requires a dedicated neutral.

 

[bwally]

in all the installs i do i have the electrician put only lighting loads on circuits ... that is i don't let them mix outlets or other devices on a leg.

i do get them to put outlets that will control lamps or lighting on seperate legs too.

this doesn't add that much extra wiring to job as it may appear because i locate as many dimmers or switches in convenient closets as possible.

this design eliminates a lot of noise issues and makes the "phase alignment" project quite easy by simple breaker placement.

also, regardless of the number of subpanels, only ONE phase coupler should ever be required. More than one should make no difference.

-------
now, about the original problem reported in this post.

i have had a bizzarre issue recently with HAI Gen1 6-Button keypads. When initially installed they work perfectly and have excellent signal strength. I add them to my UPB network, address and program them ... nice and easy. Then, after about a month or so i will fire upstart and a keypad or two won't appear. Try as i might i cannot get it to verify. The keypad still functions the way i originally programmed it with the buttons triggering the proper links. And in upstart when a press a button i see terrific signal strength originating from the device!
So, I try putting it into setup mode ... and no luck.
Then, the dreaded factory default attempt ... i hate trying this because it means the keypad will lose its programming ... but i do and now the keypad is rendered useless because i cannot reprogram it.

Is this similar to the problem reported at the beginning of this thread?

 

[ccap]

in all the installs i do i have the electrician put only lighting loads on circuits ... that is i don't let them mix outlets or other devices on a leg.

i do get them to put outlets that will control lamps or lighting on seperate legs too.

this doesn't add that much extra wiring to job as it may appear because i locate as many dimmers or switches in convenient closets as possible.

this design eliminates a lot of noise issues and makes the "phase alignment" project quite easy by simple breaker placement.

also, regardless of the number of subpanels, only ONE phase coupler should ever be required. More than one should make no difference.

-------
now, about the original problem reported in this post.

i have had a bizzarre issue recently with HAI Gen1 6-Button keypads. When initially installed they work perfectly and have excellent signal strength. I add them to my UPB network, address and program them ... nice and easy. Then, after about a month or so i will fire upstart and a keypad or two won't appear. Try as i might i cannot get it to verify. The keypad still functions the way i originally programmed it with the buttons triggering the proper links. And in upstart when a press a button i see terrific signal strength originating from the device!
So, I try putting it into setup mode ... and no luck.
Then, the dreaded factory default attempt ... i hate trying this because it means the keypad will lose its programming ... but i do and now the keypad is rendered useless because i cannot reprogram it.

Is this similar to the problem reported at the beginning of this thread?

When I was using UPStart, I was able to find all the devices and set them up. Then I figured out that I should have let the HAI set up the devices so I could gain status control. So I set up all the devices properly by room and then started to program them. That is when I found out that the HAI cannot find all the devices. I would go into control set up and then HAI would come up No Module Found. If find everything on the new addition that I added, and some of the switches off the main panel but it has trouble on the sub panel in my bedroom closet and parts of the main panel.

I think I mentioned that the HAI is in an eave in the attic and I used a completly different circuit for the UPStart software.

I do have one phase couple that I was thinking I will have the electrician install. It looks simple enough, but I should let him do it.

Other than the direct wiring of the phase coupler, are there other effective devices that I can plug in or wire like a switch that would work and be easier that I could install it. DOnt get me wrong, I have been changing out my switches, 3 ways, etc.

Thanks

 

[bfisher]

Other than the direct wiring of the phase coupler, are there other effective devices that I can plug in or wire like a switch that would work and be easier that I could install it. DOnt get me wrong, I have been changing out my switches, 3 ways, etc.

There is a plug-in phase coupler that you plug into your 220 outlet and then plug your dryer into it. Takes all of 30 seconds to install

 

[webmtn]

in all the installs i do i have the electrician put only lighting loads on circuits ... that is i don't let them mix outlets or other devices on a leg.

i do get them to put outlets that will control lamps or lighting on seperate legs too.

this doesn't add that much extra wiring to job as it may appear because i locate as many dimmers or switches in convenient closets as possible.

this design eliminates a lot of noise issues and makes the "phase alignment" project quite easy by simple breaker placement.

also, regardless of the number of subpanels, only ONE phase coupler should ever be required. More than one should make no difference.

-------
now, about the original problem reported in this post.

i have had a bizzarre issue recently with HAI Gen1 6-Button keypads. When initially installed they work perfectly and have excellent signal strength. I add them to my UPB network, address and program them ... nice and easy. Then, after about a month or so i will fire upstart and a keypad or two won't appear. Try as i might i cannot get it to verify. The keypad still functions the way i originally programmed it with the buttons triggering the proper links. And in upstart when a press a button i see terrific signal strength originating from the device!
So, I try putting it into setup mode ... and no luck.
Then, the dreaded factory default attempt ... i hate trying this because it means the keypad will lose its programming ... but i do and now the keypad is rendered useless because i cannot reprogram it.

Is this similar to the problem reported at the beginning of this thread?

bwally - you say "keypads" - plural. You ae seeing this on more than one device? Do you see the problem with other devices - non keypads? Two possible things to look at. One - does your PIM have a problem with its transmit output level? If so, you would see problems with the PIM and Upstart being able to communicate reliably with devices, especially those that already had lower signal levels. Secondly, while it would seem odd to have multiple devices exhibit the same problem, it could be that the devices either have bad Receive paths or weak RCV paths. Since the devices can obviously transmit, the Transmit path is fine. You are still controlling devices, and UPstart shows good signal strengths. But, if the RCV path is bad, you would be able to transmit, control devices, have Upstart see good signal Levels when the device transmit, but you would not be able to add the device, or run a communications test, etc, since the device could not receive reliably and these tests require both the Transmit and REceive paths to be working properly.

Just a thought............

 

[AnthonyZ]

bwally - you say "keypads" - plural. You ae seeing this on more than one device? Do you see the problem with other devices - non keypads? Two possible things to look at. One - does your PIM have a problem with its transmit output level? If so, you would see problems with the PIM and Upstart being able to communicate reliably with devices, especially those that already had lower signal levels. Secondly, while it would seem odd to have multiple devices exhibit the same problem, it could be that the devices either have bad Receive paths or weak RCV paths. Since the devices can obviously transmit, the Transmit path is fine. You are still controlling devices, and UPstart shows good signal strengths. But, if the RCV path is bad, you would be able to transmit, control devices, have Upstart see good signal Levels when the device transmit, but you would not be able to add the device, or run a communications test, etc, since the device could not receive reliably and these tests require both the Transmit and REceive paths to be working properly.

Just a thought............

I understand the theory behind this but how does one actually determine the transmit output level of a PIM and/or weak recieve paths? As stated, a comm's test may not be possible. What is the procedure?

 

[webmtn]

bwally - you say "keypads" - plural. You ae seeing this on more than one device? Do you see the problem with other devices - non keypads? Two possible things to look at. One - does your PIM have a problem with its transmit output level? If so, you would see problems with the PIM and Upstart being able to communicate reliably with devices, especially those that already had lower signal levels. Secondly, while it would seem odd to have multiple devices exhibit the same problem, it could be that the devices either have bad Receive paths or weak RCV paths. Since the devices can obviously transmit, the Transmit path is fine. You are still controlling devices, and UPstart shows good signal strengths. But, if the RCV path is bad, you would be able to transmit, control devices, have Upstart see good signal Levels when the device transmit, but you would not be able to add the device, or run a communications test, etc, since the device could not receive reliably and these tests require both the Transmit and REceive paths to be working properly.

Just a thought............

I understand the theory behind this but how does one actually determine the transmit output level of a PIM and/or weak recieve paths? As stated, a comm's test may not be possible. What is the procedure?

To prove this can be difficult. If it is happening with more than one device, then I would be suspicious that it is not a device problem. If it is happening with all devices, then I would suspect the PIM. If you have any way to connect your PIM to the same circuit as close as possible to the device, try running a Device Comm test from Upstart. When you do this, you will be shown the signal level received at the device, and the signal level received at the PIM. If they are dramatically different, then you might have a weak receiver on the device or the PIM. I have seen instances where there might be 40 or 50 lesters between the PIM signal and the device signal. In those instances, I had to replace the PIM or the device. It is not uncommon to see a difference of 10 to 15 lesters.

If you move the PIM close to the device and you still can't detect it, then it might be a device that has a failed RCV path.

There might be another possibility. Are you only seeing this problem with your HAI keypads? And, are you seeing it with all of your HAI keypads? Did you just recently install the keypads and the other devices have been in for awhile?