Help - perplexing UPB issue with certain link not working

wdeertz

Active Member
I am pulling my hair out trying to figure out an issue I am having with a particular UPB link not working properly.  Not sure if my issue is UPB or HAI related but am posting to this forum in hopes of getting some advice.
 
Environment - OP2 with various UPB lights configured using standard HLC configuration.  3 phase power with repeater, no issues with line noise across all three phases.
 
I have UPB Link 030 defined as my Nighttime Low Level scene and it turns on various lights throughout the home (across multiple rooms and A/B/C power phases).  
 
My Foyer light is configured as Unit 002 and uses a SAI US2-40 switch.  I've configured this light with a receive scene to turn the light on 40% level when UPB Link 030 is received.  While in Upstart I've tested this scene/link and it works perfectly.  I can manually turn on/off/dim this light via various interfaces such as snap link , space or Haiku so there is no issue with communicating with this unit.
 
HAI automation is configured to execute UPB link 030 at 10 minutes before sunset and all lights turn on except the foyer light/unit 002.  While in PC Access I can send UPB commands to turn on/off/dim the foyer light with no issue but if I send UPB link 030 all the lights configured come on except the foyer light.
 
Anyone have any idea why the foyer light will not come on with UPB Link 030????  This is particularly perplexing considering I can test this scene/link while in Upstart and it turns on the foyer light to 40% as expected.  Appreciate any inputs which can be provided.
 
wdeertz said:
I am pulling my hair out trying to figure out an issue I am having with a particular UPB link not working properly.  Not sure if my issue is UPB or HAI related but am posting to this forum in hopes of getting some advice.
 
Environment - OP2 with various UPB lights configured using standard HLC configuration.  3 phase power with repeater, no issues with line noise across all three phases.
 
I have UPB Link 030 defined as my Nighttime Low Level scene and it turns on various lights throughout the home (across multiple rooms and A/B/C power phases).  
 
My Foyer light is configured as Unit 002 and uses a SAI US2-40 switch.  I've configured this light with a receive scene to turn the light on 40% level when UPB Link 030 is received.  While in Upstart I've tested this scene/link and it works perfectly.  I can manually turn on/off/dim this light via various interfaces such as snap link , space or Haiku so there is no issue with communicating with this unit.
 
HAI automation is configured to execute UPB link 030 at 10 minutes before sunset and all lights turn on except the foyer light/unit 002.  While in PC Access I can send UPB commands to turn on/off/dim the foyer light with no issue but if I send UPB link 030 all the lights configured come on except the foyer light.
 
Anyone have any idea why the foyer light will not come on with UPB Link 030????  This is particularly perplexing considering I can test this scene/link while in Upstart and it turns on the foyer light to 40% as expected.  Appreciate any inputs which can be provided.
Very likely you have stumbled upon something I have mentioned before, Simply Automated switches don't support repeaters in most cases. Since you have 3-phase power, you likely have switches on all three phases.  If the PIM and the switch are on the SAME phase, then no problem, which might be happening with your UPStart test. When you test with UPStart, and you communicate via the Panel, are those two PIMs on the SAME phase?  Is the HAI PIM on the same phase as the Simply Automated switch, but the UPStart PIM isn't?   Try a HAI/Leviton switch or a PCA PulseWorx switch at the same location and I bet they will work fine.  Those switches DO support repeaters, but 2-phase and 3-phase.
 
If your really attached to that Simply Automated switch, then you can add some passive UPB couplers and use them with your repeater.  Just get ones designed for 3-phase. You CAN use both repeaters & couplers.  My advice would just replace the SA switch instead. Your choice.
 
I have had a similar issue using the US2-40.  The OP2 can control one of the channels but does not easily control the second channel since it cannot be set up as its own "unit".  I was able to control on and off for the second channel using a flag but not dimming.  I can also control using Haiku if I use a scene to set the brightness but I can't control the brightness independently. 
 
mikefamig said:
Some LED bulbs have trouble dimming, can this be the problem?
No I don't think its the LED bulbs as they dim fine, I can send other single links for the standard HLC codes.
 
Are you triggering all at one time or using step by step to walk through the lights in the automation programming?
 
I would recommend creating a new scene  in UPStart but only add the foyer light to it with no dimming.  Configure the UPB link for the new scene in PC Access (don't forget to write it to the controller). 
 
Does the foyer light trigger as a single light in the scene?
  •  Yes - now add a couple of additional lights to the same scene.  Yes - proceed next step. No - try a different single light, removing the foyer light. Same problem - check you PIM or try your PIM on another phase.
  •  Add the rest of the lights. All Yes - use the new scene.  No - timing issue - fix the timeout. 
Repeat the above, but now configure dimming.
  • Works yes - use the new scene.
  • Doesn't work - contact the UPB manufacturer.
What are your results?
 
 
You could try the above test using the original scene with no dimming, but my guess is that is not the issue.
 
ano said:
Very likely you have stumbled upon something I have mentioned before, Simply Automated switches don't support repeaters in most cases. Since you have 3-phase power, you likely have switches on all three phases.  If the PIM and the switch are on the SAME phase, then no problem, which might be happening with your UPStart test. When you test with UPStart, and you communicate via the Panel, are those two PIMs on the SAME phase?  Is the HAI PIM on the same phase as the Simply Automated switch, but the UPStart PIM isn't?   Try a HAI/Leviton switch or a PCA PulseWorx switch at the same location and I bet they will work fine.  Those switches DO support repeaters, but 2-phase and 3-phase.
 
If your really attached to that Simply Automated switch, then you can add some passive UPB couplers and use them with your repeater.  Just get ones designed for 3-phase. You CAN use both repeaters & couplers.  My advice would just replace the SA switch instead. Your choice.
I went back and confirmed that all the lights in this particular link are in only phases A and B.  The majority of the lights are using HAI 35A001 switches and these pose no problems across both phases.  There are a couple lights using SAI US2-40 switches with configuration of one paddle and 4 switches (ZS25) and they are on both phases A and B.  The PIM is on phase B and the light on phase B using the SAI US2-40 switch has no issues.  The Foyer Light that I am having the problem with is using a SAI US2-40 switch on phase A so you may be right about these switches not working across the repeater.  My only question is why can the PIM on Phase B send an on/off command to the foyer light on Phase A with no issue but it doesn't work when blasting out UPB link 030 for my nighttime lighting?
 
While testing I did discover that once I execute the UPB Link 030 I lose control of the foyer light (unit 002 on phase a) but the UPB Link for All Off works.  As a temporary work around I've set the foyer light to come on 35 minutes before sunset by itself and then 30 minutes before sunset the nighttime upb link 030 will execute.  At 11pm an All Off command is sent to turn off all lights across the house.   I think this will work for my purposes but am still perplexed why that particular light doesn't receive and execute the link.
 
As a side note, I've noticed that all my SAI US2-40 switches are not reporting their light level after any button or rocker is pressed.  In the configuration I have this box checked.  Are your SAI US2-40 switches reporting the light level back after a button is pressed?  I could insert code as a work around but this seems like a kludge.
 
ano said:
Very likely you have stumbled upon something I have mentioned before, Simply Automated switches don't support repeaters in most cases. Since you have 3-phase power, you likely have switches on all three phases.  If the PIM and the switch are on the SAME phase, then no problem, which might be happening with your UPStart test. When you test with UPStart, and you communicate via the Panel, are those two PIMs on the SAME phase?  Is the HAI PIM on the same phase as the Simply Automated switch, but the UPStart PIM isn't?   Try a HAI/Leviton switch or a PCA PulseWorx switch at the same location and I bet they will work fine.  Those switches DO support repeaters, but 2-phase and 3-phase.
 
If your really attached to that Simply Automated switch, then you can add some passive UPB couplers and use them with your repeater.  Just get ones designed for 3-phase. You CAN use both repeaters & couplers.  My advice would just replace the SA switch instead. Your choice.
I went back and confirmed that all the lights in this particular link are in only phases A and B.  The majority of the lights are using HAI 35A001 switches and these pose no problems across both phases.  There are a couple lights using SAI US2-40 switches with configuration of one paddle and 4 switches (ZS25) and they are on both phases A and B.  The PIM is on phase B and the light on phase B using the SAI US2-40 switch has no issues.  The Foyer Light that I am having the problem with is using a SAI US2-40 switch on phase A so you may be right about these switches not working across the repeater.  My only question is why can the PIM on Phase B send an on/off command to the foyer light on Phase A with no issue but it doesn't work when blasting out UPB link 030 for my nighttime lighting?
 
While testing I did discover that once I execute the UPB Link 030 I lose control of the foyer light (unit 002 on phase a) but the UPB Link for All Off works.  As a temporary work around I've set the foyer light to come on 35 minutes before sunset by itself and then 30 minutes before sunset the nighttime upb link 030 will execute.  At 11pm an All Off command is sent to turn off all lights across the house.   I think this will work for my purposes but am still perplexed why that particular light doesn't receive and execute the link.
 
As a side note, I've noticed that all my SAI US2-40 switches are not reporting their light level after any button or rocker is pressed.  In the configuration I have this box checked.  Are your SAI US2-40 switches reporting the light level back after a button is pressed?  I could insert code as a work around but this seems like a kludge.
 
swamiller said:
I have had a similar issue using the US2-40.  The OP2 can control one of the channels but does not easily control the second channel since it cannot be set up as its own "unit".  I was able to control on and off for the second channel using a flag but not dimming.  I can also control using Haiku if I use a scene to set the brightness but I can't control the brightness independently. 
 I am using the US2-40 switches configured as one paddle and 4 buttons so I don't think this is the issue.  As far as I now I'm not using a 2nd channel.
 
StarTrekDoors said:
Are you triggering all at one time or using step by step to walk through the lights in the automation programming?
 
I would recommend creating a new scene  in UPStart but only add the foyer light to it with no dimming.  Configure the UPB link for the new scene in PC Access (don't forget to write it to the controller). 
 
Does the foyer light trigger as a single light in the scene?
  •  Yes - now add a couple of additional lights to the same scene.  Yes - proceed next step. No - try a different single light, removing the foyer light. Same problem - check you PIM or try your PIM on another phase.
  •  Add the rest of the lights. All Yes - use the new scene.  No - timing issue - fix the timeout. 
Repeat the above, but now configure dimming.
  • Works yes - use the new scene.
  • Doesn't work - contact the UPB manufacturer.
What are your results?
 
 
You could try the above test using the original scene with no dimming, but my guess is that is not the issue.
Thanks for the suggestion, I did try to isolate the problem but haven't gotten 100% confirmation of what is causing the timing issue.  I suspect Ano is correct that its a timing issue across the power phases.  As a temporary workaround I have a new upb link which turns on the foyer light 5 minutes before the other nighttime lighting is executed.  This should sort me out for a temporary solution.
 
wdeertz said:
Thanks for the suggestion, I did try to isolate the problem but haven't gotten 100% confirmation of what is causing the timing issue.  I suspect Ano is correct that its a timing issue across the power phases.  As a temporary workaround I have a new upb link which turns on the foyer light 5 minutes before the other nighttime lighting is executed.  This should sort me out for a temporary solution.
Follow these directions from Leviton:  http://communities.leviton.com/docs/DOC-4931
You shouldn't have any issues with Leviton/HAI switches. Again, SA switches can be hit or miss. Even if you can control a light, the advantage of HLC is that the panel can poll the status of lights, and SA switches with repeaters don't usually work for that (unless the switch is on the same phase as the PIM.)
 
Leviton & PCS switches support "multi-packet" transmissions (Gen2), which this article speaks about. Simply Automated Switches DO NOT!!!
 
ano said:
Follow these directions from Leviton:  http://communities.leviton.com/docs/DOC-4931
You shouldn't have any issues with Leviton/HAI switches. Again, SA switches can be hit or miss. Even if you can control a light, the advantage of HLC is that the panel can poll the status of lights, and SA switches with repeaters don't usually work for that (unless the switch is on the same phase as the PIM.)
 
Leviton & PCS switches support "multi-packet" transmissions (Gen2), which this article speaks about. Simply Automated Switches DO NOT!!!
Ano, thanks for sharing this link, this pretty much confirmed my understanding.  I went back and looked at all the UPB light switches/control modules I am using and which phase power they are on.  Your reply confirms what I have been experiencing which is namely that non-HAI switches on phases different than the PIM phase will have communication issues.  The PIM connected to my panel is on Phase B and the SAI switches I am having trouble with are on Phase A.  I've looked at my electrical panel and can move these two circuits to a Phase B breaker and this should solve my problems.  Again the HAI switches have no problem jumping signals across the phases so this appears to be only an issue with certain non-HAI switches.  Thanks for your guidance.
 
wdeertz said:
Ano, thanks for sharing this link, this pretty much confirmed my understanding.  I went back and looked at all the UPB light switches/control modules I am using and which phase power they are on.  Your reply confirms what I have been experiencing which is namely that non-HAI switches on phases different than the PIM phase will have communication issues.  The PIM connected to my panel is on Phase B and the SAI switches I am having trouble with are on Phase A.  I've looked at my electrical panel and can move these two circuits to a Phase B breaker and this should solve my problems.  Again the HAI switches have no problem jumping signals across the phases so this appears to be only an issue with certain non-HAI switches.  Thanks for your guidance.
Not really non-HAI switches but JUST SA switches. PCS created the UPB standard and they maintain UpStart. Others license to use the technology. All other companies licensed Gen 1 technology but when Gen 2 (Gen 3, Gen 4) technology came out SA chose not to license the updates. One of the Gen 2 updates was support for a repeater, so SA switches don't have it. If you really like the SA switches, the company Web Mountain buys SA switches and updates their firmware with Gen 2 and beyond. Web Mountain DOES license the newer firmware. So all switches do work fine EXCEPT SA switches. 
 
The only exception to that is HAI added a way for the switches to be updated by the panel. Only HAI switches contain that technology. You have to program the others with UpStart.
 
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