Homerun lighting wiring for Square-D/Centralite Prep

[felixrosbergen]

I would be happier if there was another solution that did in-wall dimming with cat5 for just control.

But, i guess if they go out of business I could try and buy up a bunch of switches at a bargain price

There is. Lutron will do in-wall dimming and it can, but it is not recommended, use CAT5. Lutron does have special wire that is 600v rated so it can go in the box, but it is just a pair of 22g wire same as CAT5.

Can you give a link or name for the Lutron products that are hardwired? I seem to be able to only find radio stuff...

 

[Herdfan]

Can you give a link or name for the Lutron products that are hardwired? I seem to be able to only find radio stuff...

http://www.lutron.com/Homeworks/4series_sys.asp?s=&t=

This is the cheapest Lutron solution available. Dimmers run about $160 each MSRP.

 

[felixrosbergen]

Can you give a link or name for the Lutron products that are hardwired? I seem to be able to only find radio stuff...

http://www.lutron.com/Homeworks/4series_sys.asp?s=&t=

This is the cheapest Lutron solution available. Dimmers run about $160 each MSRP.

Is this inwall dimmer with hardwired LV control similar to ALC? Pulling up the wiring diagrams for the Meastro dimmer i can't see where the LV control wires would connect.

 

[Herdfan]

Is this inwall dimmer with hardwired LV control similar to ALC? Pulling up the wiring diagrams for the Meastro dimmer i can't see where the LV control wires would connect.

Yes it is. One thing to note is that "Maestro" is a style of electronic dimmer that crosses several Lutron platforms. It can be wired, 3 forms of wireless (Wireless, RadioRA and Homeworks Wireless) or it can be a regular dimmer you buy at HD. It all depends on the model #. For a wired HW version, you need to see HWD in the model #. http://www.lutron.com/hwi/pdfs/SpecSubmittal/048-012a.pdf The wires come out of the top and can be connected either inside our outside the j-box.

I am not that familiar ALC, but when part of a Lutron HW system, a Maestro dimmer in addition to controlling the local load, can perform other functions as well. It can be set to have a Double Tap trigger other events. For example, in my house, any dimmer that controls an outdoor light can trigger ALL outdoor lights with a DT. Each dimmer can be set to come on at a fixed percentage so if you want the dining room lights to come on to 70% as their base setting, the Maestro can be programmed to do that. They can also control other dimmers.

And they have terminals and not pigtails.

 

[broconne]

Is this inwall dimmer with hardwired LV control similar to ALC? Pulling up the wiring diagrams for the Meastro dimmer i can't see where the LV control wires would connect.

Yes it is. One thing to note is that "Maestro" is a style of electronic dimmer that crosses several Lutron platforms. It can be wired, 3 forms of wireless (Wireless, RadioRA and Homeworks Wireless) or it can be a regular dimmer you buy at HD. It all depends on the model #. For a wired HW version, you need to see HWD in the model #. http://www.lutron.com/hwi/pdfs/SpecSubmittal/048-012a.pdf The wires come out of the top and can be connected either inside our outside the j-box.

I am not that familiar ALC, but when part of a Lutron HW system, a Maestro dimmer in addition to controlling the local load, can perform other functions as well. It can be set to have a Double Tap trigger other events. For example, in my house, any dimmer that controls an outdoor light can trigger ALL outdoor lights with a DT. Each dimmer can be set to come on at a fixed percentage so if you want the dining room lights to come on to 70% as their base setting, the Maestro can be programmed to do that. They can also control other dimmers.

And they have terminals and not pigtails.

Wow - Very interesting. I am leaning towards ALC/OnQ because I like the idea of CAT5 control and a non-proprietary wiring.. However, the dimmers and scene switches are ugly (IMO)...

The HA Systems Comp spreadsheet says a few things about Homeworks that based on your description I can't tell if they are accurate or not.

The switches don't report the status when operated locally? So you won't know which lights are on or off with your homeworks setup?
Looking at the wiring diagram.. If you have a switch wired as a normal 3 way switch - can you put in a lutron 3 way switch and have it work?

 

[Herdfan]

I don't really consider a pair of 22g proprietary. The one benefit is that it is 600v rated, so it can be in the box. The only reason the leads come out over the top is in case the AHJ wants to be a pain or if 300v wire is used. So CAT5 will work just fine, it is just not recommended. OTOH, wire is cheap so running CAT5 in addition to the proper wiring would not cost that much extra. As to the keypad wiring, most of the lighting systems use this (2x22, 2x18) wire.

The dimmers most certainly report status to the processor when operated locally. Otherwise there would be no way to use them to trigger other functions or update keypad LED's etc. The processor knows the state of every dimmer in the system at all times.

The wiring uses regular 3 way wiring, but you need to use the Maestro Remote Dimmer. You can't use a regular 3 way switch. One nice thing about the way they wire up is that there is always a hot feed in every box. In my house, I used this hot feed to put a keypad (I have a wireless system so my keypads are HV) in the middle of a multiway circuit. The dimmer can be at any point in the circuit which helps with derating. For example, if you needed to put 3 dimmers in a box, you could move one dimmer to an alternate location and not have to derate for that dimmer.

One other nice thing about Lutron is you can seamlessly mix wired and wireless. So if you needed to put in a dimmer after the walls were closed up, you could use a wireless one and the system would integrate it as if it were wired.

I was surprised at the cost of the ALC/OnQ dimmers. Lutron dimmers are not that much more and yes, you get the prettier keypads.

 

[broconne]

I don't really consider a pair of 22g proprietary. The one benefit is that it is 600v rated, so it can be in the box. The only reason the leads come out over the top is in case the AHJ wants to be a pain or if 300v wire is used. So CAT5 will work just fine, it is just not recommended. OTOH, wire is cheap so running CAT5 in addition to the proper wiring would not cost that much extra. As to the keypad wiring, most of the lighting systems use this (2x22, 2x18) wire.

The dimmers most certainly report status to the processor when operated locally. Otherwise there would be no way to use them to trigger other functions or update keypad LED's etc. The processor knows the state of every dimmer in the system at all times.

The wiring uses regular 3 way wiring, but you need to use the Maestro Remote Dimmer. You can't use a regular 3 way switch. One nice thing about the way they wire up is that there is always a hot feed in every box. In my house, I used this hot feed to put a keypad (I have a wireless system so my keypads are HV) in the middle of a multiway circuit. The dimmer can be at any point in the circuit which helps with derating. For example, if you needed to put 3 dimmers in a box, you could move one dimmer to an alternate location and not have to derate for that dimmer.

One other nice thing about Lutron is you can seamlessly mix wired and wireless. So if you needed to put in a dimmer after the walls were closed up, you could use a wireless one and the system would integrate it as if it were wired.

I was surprised at the cost of the ALC/OnQ dimmers. Lutron dimmers are not that much more and yes, you get the prettier keypads.

Very interesting information. Is anyone out there running homeworks with CAT5? For me running, 22/2 to the keypads in addition to the Cat5 would cost an additional $40 per run. So would probably not do that, specially if I can get the same functionality with CAT5 and be able to go both ALC/OnQ.

This would also enable me to avoid any Homerun loops - would would be an additional cost..

The 3 way dimmers - are they the same as the companion dimmers you can buy at home depot for other Lutron lighting solutions? I had the standard and IR/Maestro in my old house.

The same spreedsheet shows that the elk cannot control the homeworks is that correct?

Thanks!

 

[felixrosbergen]

How expensive is this cable that Lutron recommends compared to cat5? For most of my locations there is not a cable yet so i could use that.

Altogether it seems like a good alternative...trying to get a feel for the cost difference...

The ALC scene switch is indeed ugly, the dimmer themselves are fine with me.

Anybody have a good cost comparison?

And the interaction with ELK and possibly CQC is ofcourse a major issue. If it can't interface with the ELK then it's a non starter for me.

I thought i was all set for ALC, but am having 2nd throughts now.

 

[Herdfan]

The big issue with CAT5 to the keypads is that the keypad bus carries power, so while CAT5 works fine for signals for the dimmers, once you put power on a couple of pairs, you can run into issues.

You want homerun loops. Yes, they cost a little more, but if the drywallers nick a wire (which they do quite frequently), it is nice to have another path back to the processor.

Similar but different.

Both the Elk and Homeworks have well established and published RS-232 protocols. They most certainly can talk to each other via RS-232. Also, since the Elk can operate contact closures and Lutron processor has CCI, they can communicate that way as well.

Will your builder let you or a lighting contractor run the control wire for the lighting system?

 

[felixrosbergen]

I guess Lutron is a bigger company is more likely to stick around for a while.

If the wire for Lutron is 22-2 can't you just tie several of the cat5 pairs together to get the bigger current carrying capacity?

When you say 'homerun loop' do you actually mean fromt the wiring room to the keypad and then back?

Your suggestion for contact closure communication between ELK and Lutron woudl probably nix the dimming functions wouldn't it?

I'd like to hear from somebody who Lutron and ELK talking to each other.

 

[Herdfan]

Mavric,

Keypad bus cable is about $400 per 1000' Search for "Lutron Yellow"

Dimmer bus cable is about $215 per 1000' Search for "Lutron Pink"

A homerun loop is exactly what you described. If the cable is damaged by drywallers, then you still have a path back. So for example on a keypad bus which will take 8 keypads, but limiting it to 4 is a good idea, the wire would go from the WLB (Wire Landing Board) to 4 keypads in some order, then back to the WLB. If the wire is damaged between keypad 2 and 3, then you still have a good path for 1 & 2 and 3 & 4. Wire damage does happen.

Yes you can tie a CAT5 pair together, but you lose the shielding. Plus, Lutron wire is stranded not solid so it is much more durable.

The contact closure suggestion was mainly meant for an alarm. For example, the ELK detects a glass break and sets off its alarm. It also fires a CCO. The Lutron Processor detects this on its CCI which tells it to go to Security Mode. In Security Mode, ALL lights come on and stay forced on for a preset period of time. Certain outdoor lights can also be programmed to flash.

The processor will respond however it is programmed to regarding a CCI (Contact Closure Input). If it is programmed to dim Zone A on CCI-1, that is what it will do.

The Lutron Processor actually has much more lighting automation capability than the ELK and should be used as the default for most lighting automation with the ELK being used to trigger events. For example, and this will work either way, when you leave the house, you can arm the ELK, which in turn sets the Lutron system to AWAY mode. Or you can use the Lutron system to set away mode which in turn arms the ELK.

But yes, you can use a function key on the ELK to trigger a scene in Lutron. Elk has a published Lutron RadioRA RS-232 interface and homeworks would be similar. http://www.elkproducts.com/products/m1/m1_...integration.htm