Homevision vs Homeseer/Ocelot questions

[bfisher]

I've been a lurker here for a while (while I finish installing my Caddx Security system (85% done) and my Audio/Video Distribution system (75% done)).

My plans have been to install HomeVison Pro to manage all my normal automation tasks, and to have a PC to use as a media server (music) and to make automation announcements, etc.

After lurking here so long, I'm starting to wonder if I should just consider Homeseer with Ocelot for my needs... since I will have a PC available anyways.

I'm sorry for this "newbie" type of question - but does anybody know if I'm losing anything by going this route over the Homevision Pro route? HVPro is pretty expensive (~$1000) but appears very powerful. Can I accomplish all the same functions?

- Keypad interfaces - HVPro allows you to use your TV as an interface to your automation system - this is nice. To have a similar type of functionality - do I need to use the Leopard? Are there any simple keypad interfaces that work well with HS/Ocelot? Do you just use Keypadlincs? (these appear to accomplish what I'm looking for)

- Does Ocelot/HS allow you to use UPB instead of X10? I'm debating going this route for reliability

- If I use the PC for HomeSeer, does it use a lot of resources? or can I use it for my MusicServer too?

- If you had a blank paper, which route would you go? Anything you would have done different? (I realize this could be a thread unto itself)

Thanks!

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

As far as starting from a clean sheet of paper you should ask yourself, what do you want to do with your system (knowing what you know now)? A lot of us start out with a few X-10 switches and a Palm Pad remote, then it grows from there. Problem with this trying to integrate all of the added on systems together.

This isn't the end of the world though and is not a bad way to start out, especially if you have limited funding and want to spread out the expenditures and additions over time.

The other is philosophy. I do not like to rely on a computer based system for critical logic (if it has mechanical parts in it, it is going to fail eventually). I know a lot of people do not agree with this, but this is also the industry standard for the control and automation professional systems out there.

With that said I also have a Caddx security system and an Ocelot that I married together by getting the relay expansion board for the Caddx system and connecting that to some inputs on my SECU16I. I also have an output of my Relay8 going to a Caddx input zone as well. This gave me the flexability I needed.

I then use Homeseer and Main Lobby to do all the pretty stuff, and tasks beyond the capabilities of the above controllers, such as voice announcements, web server interface, and Emailing (for an alarm).

For music applications I use Music Lobby and JRivers Media center.

Since then the Elk M1 Gold system has come out and my belief is it combines the capabilities of the Ocelot and its digital inputs and outputs with a security system such as the Caddx. I would take a serious look at this system as it sounds like the best of both worlds and there is a Homeseer plugin for it as well.

I know this did not answer all of your questions but it is a start.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Keypad interfaces - HVPro allows you to use your TV as an interface to your automation system - this is nice. To have a similar type of functionality - do I need to use the Leopard? Are there any simple keypad interfaces that work well with HS/Ocelot? Do you just use Keypadlincs? (these appear to accomplish what I'm looking for)

Not sure what you are asking for here. Do you want a keypad such as what is offered by the Caddx system or a keypad so you can push a key say for a certain "scene" lighting scheme.

For the latter the combination of the keypadlinc8's and the Ocelot work out very well. You can have each key trigger a program in the Ocelot, all without having to use a PC. A leapord can do this, but that would be a lot more expensive route.

As far at the TV interface to the automation system, there are a few routes to take. Are you going to have a dedicated PC to display on the TV (maybe also use as an HTPC or Media Center option)? If so, you could just use Homeseer. You may want to look into their Media Center plugin also (I've read mixed reviews on it).

I don't have any experience with HV Pro. Does it have an interface with the Ocelot? If not, this would be a plus for going with Homeseer.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Does Ocelot/HS allow you to use UPB instead of X10? I'm debating going this route for reliability

There are a lot of alternatives to X-10 out there now. This includes Z-Wave, Insteon (from Smarthome), and UPB. All have their pros and cons that are described in various threads here.

I believe the Ocelot does not currently allow UPB interface, but that may change soon as it becomes more popular. I do know the Elk M1 Gold offers UPB.

I also believe Homeseer is looking into UPB support as well.

The biggest problem (as I see it) is trying to integrate any of these systems with your current X-10 systems. I realize Homeseer is a route, but then again your are relying on a PC for critical applications.

Another small factor to consider is to see if you have a neutral wire in your light switch junction boxes as most of the above alternatives to X-10 require this connection.

Oh yea, in my long post diatribes I forgot to welcome you to Cocoontech :lol:

 

[bfisher]

Excellent information SirRobbin - this was indeed what I was looking for. Like you, I do not trust a PC for critical functions - I would use a dedicated system for any controls (either Ocelot or HVPro). The PC would be all the extra pretty things that can be lived without if there is a crash.

I have the "luxury" of starting over - we just moved into this house about 6 months ago - and it's a clean slate. I have almost finished installing Caddx security (was not aware of Elk's system until after I started on Caddx) and a distributed audio/video system. Next up is all the automation...

I will be doing plenty more engineering work to determine the best fit (HVPro vs Ocelot/HS), and your messages have given me some additional insights. Thanks!

 

[Mark S.]

Ocelot has a large following with HS users, which means you will have lots of examples and help concerning how to integrate HS/Ocelot with other devices. You may want to make sure that the current HS Homevision plugin supports HV Pro.

However, if you are willing to spend the money for HV Pro, I suggest you consider JDS Stargate. With the exception of the TV interface, I think Stargate is superior to HV in nearly every spec. All those I/O options in one box makes it a great choice. It interfaces very well with Caddx and supports RCS thermostats, I/O expanders and other hardware. Stargate is rock-solid stable and programming is point and click easy. The HS plugin (.42) works very well.

Good luck.

Mark

 

[bdrichard]

Mark S. wrote:

>>With the exception of the TV interface, I think Stargate is superior to HV in nearly every spec.


You can't just drop a bomb like that without some backup info. I am a software developer with a new construction considering HV over Stargate. I am looking to pull the trigger soon, so any info would be appreciated.

 

[bfisher]

I am still leaning towards HVPro over Stargate. I haven't found anything about Stargate that I like over HVPro.

 

[jlehnert]

You can't just drop a bomb like that without some backup info.

Hey, we can bomb anyone we want. It keeps people on their toes.

Seriously, you've come upon one of HA's two versions of the Coke vs. Pepsi argument. How do you get the required inputs/outputs/intelligence to implement a HA setup? Do you use a HAI/HS combo like I do, or do you use a Ocelot/CQC combo, or a Stargate/HS combo, or a ......... Just as the permutations are numerous, so are the arguments.
Who is right and who is wrong? No one. It all depends on how you design the system. I looked at Stargate when I started out, but got turned off by "Starglish" (the StarGate programming language). I went with the HAI unit based on its combination of HA and alarm capabilities. Would I do the same thing again if I started over again today? Maybe yes, maybe no. Based on my own preferences, I would probably go with an Elk/HS combo. Should you do the same? NO! Go with whatever combination turns you on. :angry:

As an aside, the other HA Coke vs. Pepsi fight is; do you design the HA setup around hardware (Ocelot/StarGate/HAI/Elk/etc) or software (HomeSeer/CQC/ActiveHome/etc). Another way of saying it is "How far do you trust a PC driven system?" There was a very informative (and boisterous) argument over on the HS board several months ago regarding this question.

 

[Mark S.]

>>You can't just drop a bomb like that without some backup info.

I did a little research to check my facts - and I may stand corrected on the specs! I recall looking at the HVPro specs before it shipped and I remember being disappointed in the amount of built-in I/O, limited programming capabilities and lack of phone functions. I looked it up again today and it's not the disappointment that I remember - I don't know if CSI beefed it up, or if I just had bad info. I guess I should have refreshed before I dissed the HV specs.

My intention was certainly not to trash HVPro. CSI makes a nice unit and HVPro would definitely be my second choice. My point was - don't overlook Stargate - and it looks like bfisher and bdrichard have both given it consideration. Fair enough.

I guess I went with Stargate because:
1) I'm not a TV guy and would have little use for the TV interface.
2) I really wanted the built-in voicemail and intercom stuff.
3) I had the distinct impression (at the time) that Stargate had more programming capabilities (maybe I was wrong).
4) I was impressed with the add-on possibilities of Stargate, many backed by RCS (thermos, LCD keypads, IR, I/O modules, RS-485 stuff). And now a web interface.
5) But what finally sold me was the JDS user community - it was/is large, active and helpful, and I needed that.

I am one of those who won't trust a PC for critical stuff - I love the stability of a hardware controller. Stargate runs my lighting (via X-10), interfaces to various devices via I/O, RS-485 and IR, integrates with my Caddx. This integrated setup is rock-stable and is fully capable of doing everything that I believe is mission critical (automatic lighting, security, voicemail, event notification/logging, various sensors, thermos, keypads). Then Homeseer adds all the goodies - TTS, VR, web stuff, music, weather, touchscreens and it goes on forever. If my HS PC acts up, I temporarily lose the goodies, but all my other home automation goes on via Stargate. As a matter of fact, I use a HomeSeer Running Flag in Stargate - when it goes off, Stargate even takes over for some of the functions that HomeSeer normally does.

I would think you could do the above with HVPro. First try to verify that the Homeseer plugin works well with HVPro. No matter which hardware you get - you will want to add HomeSeer! As for HVPro vs. Ocelot? You get the capabilities you pay for, but you probably can't go wrong.

Mark

 

[bdrichard]

Mark,

I don't think you totally trashed it; you just expressed your opinion. The reasons you chose Stargate were obviosly because it was better for you. I just wondered how you arrived at your conclusion because I am just about ready to spend boatloads of time and $ buying and setting this thing up. Thanks for all the info.

BTW:
Using a PC-is-OK Flag to inform the controller that the PC went belly-up ...GREAT idea.


jlehnert,
You are right. There are *so* many fricking hardware software combinations out there, it is mind boggling; being simultaneously a benefit and drawback -the benefit being you get to choose, drawback being you *have* to choose. Being a software engineer helps sometimes, but I am still somewhat overwhelmed.
BTW, what the frig is an Elk?

During my research, Stargate was actually the first controller which peeked my interest. For the longest time, for all intents and purposes, that was the controller I was going to purchase (Not that I have really completely abandoned Stargate yet or anything).

There is an HV - Stagate comparison here:
http://www.digihouse.com.au/Library/Comparison.pdf
Note that this comparison created by HV, but is supposedly objective. ;-)

I also considered the Omni Pro II, but got turned off from it for a reason which escapes me. Are you happy with it?

Thanks.


HomeAutomation plans:
The house is a 3100 ft new construction wired to the hilt, with a minimum of 2 cat5e, two RG6, and two telephone to each room, with the exception of the office, Master BR and Family RM where there is double that.
I am interested in developing my own software in Java, and HV seemed a bit more in tune with my grandiose software plans. IMHO it has a better serial interface, -better for for home grown programming anyway. HV Pro also supports UPB -reportedly, a more robust powerline X10-like technology which I intend to use.

My goal is to control the entire house through few roaming wireless PDA(s), or Tablet PC(s) using a web interface -probably incorporating MM Flash for a sexy UI. The UI cannot be tabular or overly complicated. A child of 8-10 should be able to figure out how to turn the heat on.
I will use a combination of PC / Controller . The controller will take a care of most critical functions and house connectivity, while the PC will provide the majority of the control logic and web connectivity. I am slightly worried about reaction time of the system, and I read somewhere that HV Pro is slightly faster. This is most critical for lights and TV channel changing. An average response time of over 2 seconds is probably unacceptable for these applications.

Could I do any / all of this with HomeSeer?

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Mark:

I love the stability of a hardware controller. Stargate runs my lighting (via X-10), interfaces to various devices via I/O, RS-485 and IR, integrates with my Caddx.

One comment I found interesting in your post is that you said your Stargate integrates well with your Caddx system. This would leave me to believe that the Stargate in itself is not a security system (I know nothing about the Stargate).

If this is the case wouldn't the Elk M1 Gold system be a better choice for a new install? I don't have one of these either but did some reading on them and its my belief (although it may be incorrect) that this system combines the efforts of an Ocelot (with digital inputs and outputs) and a security system such as the Caddx. The advantage here is that it integrates all of this into one system. That plus the fact that it has multiple serial port capability plus the ability to also do UPB is why I suggested this in the beginning of this thread.

I realize bfisher already has a Caddx as he mentioned in his first post, I am just suggesting this scenario for a brand new install though.

It also has a Homeseer plugin so you could do the fancy stuff as well (web interface, etc...).

BTW, what the frig is an Elk?

Its a big male deer, but that's not important right now (Airplane movie quote):

Anyway:

The Elk M1 Gold system is a new programmer that came out a few months ago that incorporates a lot of features for home automation and home security purposes.

You can find out more information about it HERE.

 

[jlehnert]

BTW, what the frig is an Elk?

BSR already handled this one.

I also considered the Omni Pro II, but got turned off from it for a reason which escapes me. Are you happy with it?

Yes and no. The Omni Pro (predicessor of the OP II) has been very reliable. I am completely satisfied that it was the best choice available at the time, and the panels performance has been supurb. I have installed several other HAI units for various people.

However, if I had to do it over again now, I probably would go with the Elk M1 Gold. The panel is relatively new to the scene, and IMO, it has a better price/performance ratio than the HAI equipment. It also has a robust communications protocal, while HAI insists on staying with it's outdated polling protocal. That brings me to my last point, namely that HAI has been top dog for so long, they have become ** VERY ** arrogant. Several people on the board, including myself, have had poor experiences with some of the HAI staff. HAI has publically stated that if you are not going to buy 10,000 units, don't hold your breath waiting for them to look at any of your suggestions.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Good points jlehnert.

At least HAI had the foresight to support UPB. This may be their "saving" feature, but then again only the future will tell.

I'll tell you who I'm a little disappointed with as far as "sitting on their heels" and that is Applied Digital.

When was the last time they updated any of their Ocelot or I/O hardware? They seem to be watching the industry leave them in the dust. Shame because I really like their hardware line especially for its reliability.

 

[WayneW]

Not trying to hijack the thread or start a debate, but what more are you expecting from AppDig? Are there known issues with their products? I don't use any of their current products, but I haven't heard much grumbling about their stuff either.