I'm in your hands with my HA project!

[bucko]

I could use you guy's help getting me started on the right foot. My 3 story townhouse is almost built and ready for me to begin my HA project. In China, construction is much different then US construction. All walls are solid brick/concrete here. Once built, I then can have wire run behind whatever type of wall covering I decide to put in. Usually this is simply a smooth mortor covering and then painted. Wires are run by cutting channels and holes for j boxes. So I want to get this right from the git go.

As far as equip goes, I will have to make a run back the the US and buy everything at one time, so I get one chance to get this right as well. That being said here is a rundown of what I know so far. Please be free to tell me other, better options if you all have a better mousetrap. I have spent the last 2 weeks reading up on all this stuff, which leaves me with more questions than answers at this point. My experience is I am a retired security, electronics, PC tech. I am a newbi to HA, but familiar with networks, PC's and SOME automation.I want to incorporate security, lighting, whole house audio/video, voice control (limited) and 1 door control. I need to control everything remotely via iPhone.I will have a seperate server room and PC, NAS available. With what I have so far, I am concerned about buying unneccesary components that I don't need.

security- I will use an ELK M1Gold system. door/window, smoke, PIR, 5 IP POE cams, flood sensors (2) will all be hardwired. It will only be locally monitored for now.

lighting- I think the UPB units look good. I will use room light switches, receptacles, and a few appliance coontrols.

audio/video- I need to have multichannel audio/video to 4 rooms. another 2 rooms will be audio only. I have a Denon AVR-2805 already which has multizone audio (2).

controllers- main door will use a YET-V1 bio fingerprint with video and 3 inside stations. This unit is standalone, but I think I can add a relay to have it trip open via HAL 2000 or the ELK.
I want to use 3 wallmounted iPads for the visual controllers, and my iPhones for off-site remote control and monitoring.

voice control- I will install phones for voice control (no mics) and ceiling speakers for Hal's feedback and room audio (can use same for both?)

wiring- so far I think I will run lots of cat 6 for the devices. Alarm contacts/devices I will run 18/4. I am not sure about speaker wires, although I read the cat 6 will work if I get the right distributers. Also does cat 6 work for the video? I am not up to speed with any of the audio/visual systems needed. I also want ethernet wall plugs in 4 or 5 rooms for net access. I will have wireless as well and need all this secure and seperate from my HA network. I think I will run a central 4" PVC pipe to route all wires to each floor.

server room- I will end run everything to here. Use patch panels, 24 or 48 POE switcher, UPS, Elk, and all various controllers located here. Also the A/V, telco, sat recieves, video distributer will be here.I want to use the HAL 200 and the ELK for HA.

So at this point another question is about the ELK and Hal working together. I am clueless about how they both can integrate together and control all the systems. I assume that using these guys will help be eliminate other controllers that I would normally need. Exactly what controllers do I need so the Elk can update it's status to Hal? How can HAL use it's rules functions to command the ELK to do the lighting/cam control? OR, am I thinking about this all wrong?

I am trying to use both HAL and Elk to their full capability and keep my costs down while still accomplishing great HA functions. I am trying to learn visio now to organize all this stuff. I do use Sketchup 7 and have built a full model of my townhouse with it.

I hope this makes some sense to you folks. Please excuse my ignorance. I am not stupid, just not informed. Any help and suggestions will be very welcomed to me.

 

[Neurorad]

Sorry to be pessimistic, but I couldn't imagine buying all of the equipment at 1 time, and all working correctly the first time.

You need to find a distributor that will sell and ship to you, someone that will also help troubleshoot.

4" conduit may not be large enough, but I really don't have enough experience to say for sure.

Does HAL have a forum?

 

[drozwood90]

Did you say China? I am unaware of UPB that works on 230VAC 50Hz.

I'd double check that.

--Dan

 

[mthurs27]

I do know they make X-10 that works on 230V AC. I believe the company that makes it is called Marmitek.

Here's their site... http://www.marmitek.com/

Hope this helps.

I'm using Elk and X10 with absolutely no problems with a few filters on some appliances.

Michael

 

[KentDub]

Also does cat 6 work for the video? I am not up to speed with any of the audio/visual systems needed.

Cat6 is great for video. I just hooked up a HDMI over Cat5 (Cat6 for me) extender for my PC at 75ft. Works perfectly! Note: For HDMI, you need two runs of Cat6. You can use the Cat6 for VGA, Component, HDMI, etc. It's very flexable. Cat6 can be a 100% solution (with baluns) for video. For audio, see my comments below.

I also want ethernet wall plugs in 4 or 5 rooms for net access. I will have wireless as well and need all this secure and seperate from my HA network.

Make sure you double-run (or tripple) network connections to your bedrooms. I don't know about china, but with IPTV here in the states my cable boxes are now running on ethernet rather than coax (still not an excuse to not run coax though). Just one of many examples where you wish you had that extra run. It sucks to have to put a switch in a room just to get an extra port. Don't forget about POTS (Plain old telephone service), keep a dedicated run of cat6 just for this to each room.

I think I will run a central 4" PVC pipe to route all wires to each floor.

I agree, 4" won't be big enough. Double it up (two 4" conduits side by side).

For your amplified audio, do not use cat6. For runs > 50ft you should run 12g wire. Runs less than 50ft you can use 14g wire. Name brands for audio cables don't mean anything, it's all about the gauge (which influences the impediance of the wire).

For unamplified audio (i.e. line level), it's depends how high-end you want to be. I am a huge fan of ballanced audio wiring, this is a life saver in equipment rooms so audio signals arn't affected by the massive EM field. Unballanced (consumer) cables are simply signal and ground conductors. Unballanced signals suffer if they exceed roughly > 10ft. Ballanced (professional) audio has positive, negative, and ground conduductors. With the additional conductor, ballanced audio equipment does a phase canceling stage that all of noise picked up during the cable run is eliminated. You can always run ballanced lines and just terminate them unballanced to future proof yourself. That way if you have a problem run you can upgrade the equipment on that one run to ballanced. If you can afford ballanced wiring, it's the way to go. Cat6 UTP is not a viable solution for one who cares greatly about the highest audio quality. Cat6 STP may be acceptable.

Hope this helps,
Kent

 

[bucko]

Thanks for all your input and suggestions.

Neurorad, I will be able to get more stuff sent to me, but it is expensive and a bit trouble to do so. I expect I will have to, hopefully only one time.

drozwood90, I feared the same thing about UPB, but I also read where someone in Australia was using it there (same voltage as China). But I don;t recall where he got it from.
It is very strange UPB dosen't support outside US voltages.

mthurs27, I used X-10 for my home in the US. While it did work, it was not without frequent problems. Also it does not have near the automation features I would like and it is not as relaible quality wise. I would rather avoid X-10 controllers.

Kentdub. excellent info for A/V stuff. But what about the backend components I need? Vid distribution, filters, controllers, etc. Am I getting into a mass expense situation to get this area working? I'm trying to keep everything below 20K USD. Is that possible??

I am building a plan with Visio and SketchUp Pro. Mainly Visio to layout the HA stuff. I am new to Visio, but it looks like it is the way to go for designing the HA. My biggest challange will be to get the Chinese workers to get my pre wires right. This will test my patience to the limit. At least I only costs me about $20 for 6 people working 12 hours. I just have to watch their every move. Hell, I can't even find a wire labeler over here! At least I can get the wire ok. I will post more of my plan as it comes together. All the help is appreciated as I certainly can't pick up a phone and talk to anyone about this project. This will be one of the first HA homes in China I can tell you.

 

[Neurorad]

I think Elk has a distributor in Australia - Ness Security. I think they might re-brand the Elk, they offer an M1, same thing I think.

Check out Ness for tips on lighting control, if you say China is similar to Australia.

Edit - http://www.ness.com.au/Index.asp

Edit #2 - try registering with Ness as a Pro Installer, since you'll be installing yourself.

Edit #3 - search cocoontech for mentions of Ness.

 

[KentDub]

Kentdub. excellent info for A/V stuff. But what about the backend components I need? Vid distribution, filters, controllers, etc. Am I getting into a mass expense situation to get this area working? I'm trying to keep everything below 20K USD. Is that possible??

This is completely doable for $20k, as long as you're smart with your hard earned money. For video distibution, it can be expensive. You need to ask yourself if you want a full matrix or not. I scaled my install back dramatically when I found out the price of them (You can easially throw $4k+ on a video matrix). I have right now two HDMI devices in my equipment room that will plug into a cheap HDMI switch (not matrix) that can be IR controlled. The output of the switch feeds my office with the HDMI over Cat5 extender I mentioned in the last post (it is cheap as well). If I expand the entire system using splitters, switches and extenders I will be still under $1k for full distribution to 5 rooms. The main issue here is it's a lot of small equipment to house in the equipment room. A bonus is if a new HDMI standard comes out (which they seem to every couple years) I can upgrade with minimal cost, rather than having to buy an entirely new matrix. It's up to you if you want to go a route like this or with a traditional matrix. You may just decide you don't need video routing capabilties, but simply want to house all of your AV equipment in one spot. That's easy, cheap, and all you need is Component/HDMI over Cat5 baluns, audio wiring, and IR distribution. Either way, you need to decide if you want to go HDMI or component as well as what end devices you will have before you can pick equipment.

You'll want a standard RG6 amplifier and serge protector on the service coax running into your house -- if you will have a structured wiring can then you can easially get modules made for that. Also it wouldn't be a bad idea to get a serge protector for your POTS.

As far as controllers, this really comes down to personal preference. As long as the equipment you buy is IR or serial controllable you can get it to work with most controllers. The most I can really give you here is to go a software/hardware combo. Don't forget about IR distribution.

Hope this helps,
Kent

 

[bucko]

Kentdub. excellent info for A/V stuff. But what about the backend components I need? Vid distribution, filters, controllers, etc. Am I getting into a mass expense situation to get this area working? I'm trying to keep everything below 20K USD. Is that possible??

This is completely doable for $20k, as long as you're smart with your hard earned money. For video distibution, it can be expensive. You need to ask yourself if you want a full matrix or not. I scaled my install back dramatically when I found out the price of them (You can easially throw $4k+ on a video matrix). I have right now two HDMI devices in my equipment room that will plug into a cheap HDMI switch (not matrix) that can be IR controlled. The output of the switch feeds my office with the HDMI over Cat5 extender I mentioned in the last post (it is cheap as well). If I expand the entire system using splitters, switches and extenders I will be still under $1k for full distribution to 5 rooms. The main issue here is it's a lot of small equipment to house in the equipment room. A bonus is if a new HDMI standard comes out (which they seem to every couple years) I can upgrade with minimal cost, rather than having to buy an entirely new matrix. It's up to you if you want to go a route like this or with a traditional matrix. You may just decide you don't need video routing capabilties, but simply want to house all of your AV equipment in one spot. That's easy, cheap, and all you need is Component/HDMI over Cat5 baluns, audio wiring, and IR distribution. Either way, you need to decide if you want to go HDMI or component as well as what end devices you will have before you can pick equipment.

You'll want a standard RG6 amplifier and serge protector on the service coax running into your house -- if you will have a structured wiring can then you can easially get modules made for that. Also it wouldn't be a bad idea to get a serge protector for your POTS.

As far as controllers, this really comes down to personal preference. As long as the equipment you buy is IR or serial controllable you can get it to work with most controllers. The most I can really give you here is to go a software/hardware combo. Don't forget about IR distribution.

Hope this helps,
Kent

I did some checking, and like you Kent, I will scale back on this vid project. I think now I will want to just distribute video to each room from only a few sources. My Denon AVR, 2 Sat receivers, DVD players locally in each room. I won't go with independent matrix because 3 of my 5 rooms are only guest bedrooms. My masterbedroom and my theater room is really the only ones I wanted more independent control. So if I understand you, I should locate everything in the server room and use some IR distibution so the guest rooms can change sat channels. I guess I will need 5 sat boxes to do this?? I have a dish that uses 2 LNB's, so I guess I need 3 dishes total. However I do indeed need whole house independant audio for up to 7 zones. Is this going to break the bank???