Insteon Giveaway on Friday

[MikeB]

I noticed yesterday that the revision was different again. The new ones were rev 2.3.

I got some of those in a couple months ago. Only thing I noticed is that the LEDs were more pleasing, they matched the LEDs on the v3.1 dimmers.

 

[Digger]

Digger: No, I bought replacements because it is a hassle dealing with them. I gave up quite a while ago - last year some time.

My favourite hassle was when the tech support guy wanted me to reinstall the broken switches so that he could "diagnose" them. I'd had spares from changed plans, so I'd originally just put the faulty ones aside. But no, he insisted that if I wanted them replaced, I'd have to go and take the working ones out, put the faulty ones back in and then do his checks. I don't recall the details, but one was that he wanted me to move the cover plate and see if that fixed it (!). It didn't matter that I'd tried that many times before, including unscrewing and reseating the paddle assembly etc itself. In each case I'd already discovered that pushing the microswitch with a flat-ended round plastic object showed that the micro-switch itself was the problem. (FWIW, a piece of acrylic rod)

I have had rev2.0 switches replaced that had an electrical failure though. There's nothing to complain about there. Its the bloody faulty paddle microswitches that are driving my wife (and therefore, me) crazy.

I'm guessing they used cheap switches and the contacts simply oxidize or get otherwise impaired somehow.

There doesn't seem to be a single cause, in my experience.

My summary:
Master bathroom: 2 failed -relays, about to install 3rd.
Kitchen 1: 2 failed relays, using 3rd.
Kitchen 2: just replaced a rev2.0 -relay that was almost 2 years old, but not quite.
Downstairs Office (adjacent to kitchen): -dimmer failure. Replaced with -relay and CFL's, it failed too. Now on 2nd -relay.
Entry: three simultaneous rev2.0 -dimmer electrical failures. (smarthome replaced these, replacements working perfectly)
Downstairs bathroom light: on third -relay. They seem to last 4-6 months max here. Very high traffic.
Downstairs bathroom fan: the rev2.0 -relay for the fan is dead and needs replacing. Rarely used.
Fountain: rev2.0 -relay paddle appeared to be dead, but wiggling the faceplate solved it for now. This device is in a closet and has ZERO use of the paddle. Its all remote control.
Master bedroom outside light: rev2.0 dimmer just today discovered with flakey 'on' paddle. Needs replacing.
Top of stairs: 2.0 -dimmer 'off' paddle flaked out. Replaced with 1.3 keypadlinc.
Master bedroom entry: keypadlinc 1.0 died (lights went out). Replaced with 1.3 keypad.
Wife's study closet: rev2.0 -dimmer paddle worked, but was "deaf" to insteon and X10.
Several smoked appliancelincv2's: replaced by new revisions, but they still won't work with their aquarium lights. (see below)

Notable survival stories:
Wife's study entry: rev 2.0 -relay. Gets lots of use. No sign of trouble.
Downstairs shower: rev 2.0 -dimmer. Massive humidity doses (no exhaust fan!). No sign of trouble.

There's a bunch of rev 2.0 devices still deployed in places that I've largely forgotten about but they dont give any trouble. Some of the switches that have had failed paddles are actually being used as wire-in appliancelinc or inlinelinc replacements. They generally work fine in that role - especially with the ability to remotely program them. eg: I embed some of the failed -relay modules inside the bodies of fluorescent lights and use them as self-contained remote controlled lights.

To generalize my problems:
- mostly related to -relay devices.
- bathrooms seem to be a good way to kill them, but the worst bathroom environment hasn't caused even the slightest problem
- high traffic areas seem to be a good way to kill them.
- zero traffic areas seem to be another good way to kill them - eg: not touching the switch for 12-18 months.
- appliancelincV2's still seem to suck. I use switchlincv2-relays with broken paddles to replace them.

I don't seem to have much trouble with devices in areas that get light but regular use.

On the plus side, I've never needed to buy any inlinelincV2's. I've still got a stockpile of unreliable switchlincV2 paddle devices available for use. I have more places to put them still.

In case anybody was wondering, no, I generally don't use switchlincV2-dimmer devices as inlinelinc replacements. I don't like the idea of their fins not being in contact with a heat sink. I do have two in this role though, but they're in a metal 3-gang box so there is plenty of heat sinking availability. (they're used as bedlight dimmers.. one "broken" -dimmer on each side and a 2-way power outlet in the center slot to plug the lights into. Plus, they're light loads, 40 or 60 watts. There should be no problem with heat.)

BTW: Ken: I wasn't really kidding about the 'revenge' thing. I've selected the first victims. The first ones are going to die by fire, sledge hammer and then electric drill. I recorded the video of them not working today, all ready for fun on the weekend. I do like the idea of sending some of the faulty ones back to smarthome - but carefully packed in horse or cow manure. Somebody else on AccessHA seemed to think that was a good idea. I doubt that I'll be doing that one though - I could imagine that one landing me in real trouble.

BTW2: The access point thing pissed me off too. I know there are issues with the signalinc-RF (can't say more due to damn sdk NDA), but new, apparently incompatible devices? WTF is up with that? The one good thing about the developer support program is that they don't tell us squat anymore, so there isn't anything to leak. At least you can get most of the docs to make a PLM work from public sources without spending $200. (A tip the the audience.. Instead of buying the SDK, get the $200 out of the ATM in notes and set it on fire. You'll get much more enjoyment from that and IMHO about the same amount of developer help.) What really bites is that the access points don't have a passthrough socket. And I don't particularly want any of those butt-ugly remotelincs so the whole trade-in program is a bust.

Mutter.. grumble.. whine.. rant.. Smarthome's botched handling of the whole Insteon thing just makes me angry. Insteon had so much promise, but when it came to the crunch, it seems like they had way too little quality control and way too much cost-cutting. I don't know what the heck their beta testing program does, but it doesn't seem to find the glaringly obvious problems. And don't get me started on what I think of the amount of planning and forethought that went into their computer interface to the system. (If they'd written houselinc and/or sdm while designing and implementing the system they'd have discovered how badly they botched it before it was too late to fix. They'd have discovered that extended messages didn't work well before shipping the first products.) There's no excuse for a network scan taking hours. If extended messaging worked and/or the powerlincV2 didn't suck so badly, a network scan should take take 30 seconds up to a minute or two at the most. I mean, WTF? The insteon promo material mentions 5ms to send a message. However, and 9600 baud to talk to a powerlincV2 means a minimum of 2ms per character. A 9 or 23 byte packet, plus overheads, plus the silly 20ms character pair delay mean that a computer initiated command takes upwards of 400ms+. There's no excuse for not designing the PLCv2 so that it could get computer commands out onto the wire at near line speed. It wouldn't have cost that much more to put enough cpu power in it to make it work right. The PLM seems to be a significant improvement so far though, but it still seems too slow.

Grrr. I have to stop before my blood pressure spikes again. That's why I had to pull out of the SDK program in the beginning of last year. And I was having such a good day today till I started replying to this and getting angry all over again.

An SH said I was the only customer unhappy with them. :angry: THey are in a state of denial!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Digger]

Smarthhome/Smartlabs never wanted anyone to do Firmware Updates in the field. That now proves it further. Wonder how much the deleted header saved them?

That header saved them a fortune. Seriously. Maybe 2 or 3 cents. Figure how many they make and checuk that never get sold because they dont work. Then how many they sell. Then how many get returned (when the gods at SH are happy and allow returns).

They saved thousands a year.

I bet they removed it because they were afraid someone would come out with a frmware reader writer and sell it. You could clone a new switch to an old one.

zero traffic areas seem to be another good way to kill them - eg: not touching the switch for 12-18 months

They must die of boredom. Or being dsiconnected from the collective (Borg).

 

[BLH]

Actually the ApplianceLincs and LampLinc Dimmers never had the connector just the pads for one to be soldered to. The holes must have been masked off as the solder was not in them. I believe they have a connector with male pins and maybe springs that can be used to connect for programming. So technically I guess the missing connector could be easier but not impossible to reprogram a module.
I think that they don't want us to do things like hack the code so all messages can be acted on even if the ID was not in the link database. I can just see a new PLM hacked to see all messages even if the senders ID is not in the PLMs link database.
Another maybe safety. The most are power line derived power supplies and even if the voltage on the pins is +5 volts. To an earth ground it could be close to the 120 VAC power line.

 

[fgarriel]

Did I win? Where do I pick up my prize?

 

[PeterW]

BLH: I suspect you are right about safety. I seem to recall reading somewhere that mains-level voltage is (was) present at that header. I have no idea if it was all devices or just some.

Interestingly, with the switchlincV2-relay rev2.3 devices, they still went to the trouble of cutting a hole in the metal plate for it to be visible, so the pads are still reachable from outside. Before, you'd have to stick a pin in a socket, or squeeze something down the side of the connector to contact the legs of the socket. But now it is fully exposed. Maybe they made it easier to zap yourself?

Hmm. I could go find out.

Digger: No, they knew I was unhappy too - I've just been biting my tounge for 12 months in the hope that they'd somehow get their act together. They must have a steve-jobs strength reality distortion field active there. Well, not surprising since they've got an ex-apple ceo there now (http://www.embedded-computing.com/news/db/?2375). I think they dismiss unhappy customers as "troublemakers" and don't consider them as normal customers. My experience with their developer program suggests to me that it is widespread in their company. Most of the bugs I was complaining about in november 2005-feb2006 are still not fixed.

I remember reading posts on forums 6 months ago with people calling for returns with the paddle problem. From memory, the thread went like this: One person would call in and be told "we've never heard of this problem before". A few days later, somebody else would call in and get the same "never heard of this before" line. etc. I'll bet that line still comes up. It shouldn't be hard to find it. It'll be either here, on accessHA, or possibly on techmall (ha!).

 

[Digger]

BLH: I suspect you are right about safety. I seem to recall reading somewhere that mains-level voltage is (was) present at that header. I have no idea if it was all devices or just some.

Interestingly, with the switchlincV2-relay rev2.3 devices, they still went to the trouble of cutting a hole in the metal plate for it to be visible, so the pads are still reachable from outside. Before, you'd have to stick a pin in a socket, or squeeze something down the side of the connector to contact the legs of the socket. But now it is fully exposed. Maybe they made it easier to zap yourself?

Hmm. I could go find out.

Digger: No, they knew I was unhappy too - I've just been biting my tounge for 12 months in the hope that they'd somehow get their act together. They must have a steve-jobs strength reality distortion field active there. Well, not surprising since they've got an ex-apple ceo there now (http://www.embedded-computing.com/news/db/?2375). I think they dismiss unhappy customers as "troublemakers" and don't consider them as normal customers. My experience with their developer program suggests to me that it is widespread in their company. Most of the bugs I was complaining about in november 2005-feb2006 are still not fixed.

I remember reading posts on forums 6 months ago with people calling for returns with the paddle problem. From memory, the thread went like this: One person would call in and be told "we've never heard of this problem before". A few days later, somebody else would call in and get the same "never heard of this before" line. etc. I'll bet that line still comes up. It shouldn't be hard to find it. It'll be either here, on accessHA, or possibly on techmall (ha!).

Yes it has been OVER six months in writing at one or two forums about the paddles. Since so many pieces of product are affected SH is apparently (guessing here) trying to hide from it until they fix it and the warranties run out.

But they will constantly tell you how happy they are to provide you with excellent customer service. I had friends call this week and while nobody denied the problem most denied the exchange citing they are working on the problem. Imagine it was a car that would not start and being told "we are working on it" and they do not repair/replace the car for months or longer and your warranty ran out as the car rusted out in your driveway. Ok I am exaggerating but you get the idea.

 

[Digger]

I am sorry there is so little left. You have lots of friends when things are free and cheap.

OK for the lack of a better idea I am going to try what someone else did a few months ago. I have new and used device left over after my friends took everything they could (they grabbed everything so fast I felt violated). For today if you buy one new you get one used free as someone else did. If any free items are left after midnight I will give them away for shipping costs.

Shipping is $5.00 anywhere in the continental USA for the first item. Each additional item is $1.00 shipping (unless the second items is small like paddles etc its free ship for that if its a second item).

New Items

5 Icon relays that are 3 months old never opened (were my spares). $30 each.

1 Icon Dimmer age unknown but about a year or so never opened (was a spare). $25.00

1 Serial PLC age unknown but was opened and instruction missing. I never used this as it was my backup (you know its Insteon and everything breaks) $20.00

1 package of 4 Frosted LED Color Change Kit for V2's $1.00 (if you only buy this shipping is $1.00)

1 package (set of 2) black V2 paddles $1.00 (if you only buy this shipping is $1.00)

1 package (set of 2) ivory V2 paddles $1.00 (I have a few more individually wrapped ivory V2 paddles for $0.50) (if you only buy this shipping is $1.00)



Used Items

1 USB PLC (no cable)

1 Icon PLC (no cable or software)

2 V2 Timers

2 V2 Dimmers

If I find anything else I will repost that.

Sorry the pickens are slim.

Please post here what you want so people know whats taken.

 

[Acoba]

I am sorry there is so little left. You have lots of friends when things are free and cheap.

OK for the lack of a better idea I am going to try what someone else did a few months ago. I have new and used device left over after my friends took everything they could (they grabbed everything so fast I felt violated). For today if you buy one new you get one used free as someone else did. If any free items are left after midnight I will give them away for shipping costs.

Shipping is $5.00 anywhere in the continental USA for the first item. Each additional item is $1.00 shipping (unless the second items is small like paddles etc its free ship for that if its a second item).

New Items

5 Icon relays that are 3 months old never opened (were my spares). $30 each.

1 Icon Dimmer age unknown but about a year or so never opened (was a spare). $25.00

1 Serial PLC age unknown but was opened and instruction missing. I never used this as it was my backup (you know its Insteon and everything breaks) $20.00

1 package of 4 Frosted LED Color Change Kit for V2's $1.00 (if you only buy this shipping is $1.00)

1 package (set of 2) black V2 paddles $1.00 (if you only buy this shipping is $1.00)

1 package (set of 2) ivory V2 paddles $1.00 (I have a few more individually wrapped ivory V2 paddles for $0.50) (if you only buy this shipping is $1.00)



Used Items

1 USB PLC (no cable)

1 Icon PLC (no cable or software)

2 V2 Timers

2 V2 Dimmers

If I find anything else I will repost that.

Sorry the pickens are slim.

Please post here what you want so people know whats taken.

Can I get the new icon dimmer and the used V2 dimmers?

Thanks,
Tony

 

[BLH]

PeterW; I just checked a SwitchLinc Dimmer and Relay type. Both have the Black Line Input directly on one of the pins of the programming connector. Same goes for the ApplianceLinc and LampLinc modules. Things with transformers like the 2412S PLM, 2414S/U, 2814U and the RFLinc maybe isolated. Guess you could use an Isolation Transformer on the hot modules; as that is what I use with X10 modules in test as they also have hot common runs.

digger; I know how you feel. I had a box of X10 goodies no longer needed. Was like a feeding frenzy when I put them out for grabs. At least they didn't wind up in the trash or land fill.

 

[Digger]

PeterW; I just checked a SwitchLinc Dimmer and Relay type. Both have the Black Line Input directly on one of the pins of the programming connector. Same goes for the ApplianceLinc and LampLinc modules. Things with transformers like the 2412S PLM, 2414S/U, 2814U and the RFLinc maybe isolated. Guess you could use an Isolation Transformer on the hot modules; as that is what I use with X10 modules in test as they also have hot common runs.

digger; I know how you feel. I had a box of X10 goodies no longer needed. Was like a feeding frenzy when I put them out for grabs. At least they didn't wind up in the trash or land fill.

Well mine went to friends so I still get to play with them, visit them, and my friends give me beer to help them set everything up. And if their wives start &*&(& I can leave :angry:

 

[IVB]

ok, so the Insteon is gone, you sold off your CQC license.

What's left in the digger HA front?

 

[Digger]

ok, so the Insteon is gone, you sold off your CQC license.

What's left in the digger HA front?

I have LOTS of stuff............

A great ELK system (flawless), houselinc (now useless), powerhome and homeseer (also useless for me without the Insteon). Since I took a huge hit on the money end and the wife is pissed about the quality of the insteon I will hold off before I try and convince her to let me try UPB or Z-Wave.

I did hold on to the lamplincs for X-mas. Just in case I am not allowed to try something else by then. Hopefully this will blow over by then.

I have weeks worth of emails from SH. About 30 or so. I am waiting to see if there is ever any Class Action Lawsuit. I wont start it but boy will I join it at this point. What do you think it would have cost SH to swap 16 bad switches under warranty? Would have been cheaper than weeks of the back and forth excuses. I guess if they replaced htem for eveyone it would be hitting the bottom line to much.

 

[PeterW]

Speaking of X10.. I have a bunch of smarthome switchlincV1's (all paddles still working!!). Would there be any interest in a giveaway for them? 30-40 devices, a mixture of -relay and -dimmer, with a couple of -timer and -remotes. I'd been meaning to put them up on ebay or something like that but I'm sure I'll never get around to it.

 

[compuguru]

Speaking of X10.. I have a bunch of smarthome switchlincV1's (all paddles still working!!). Would there be any interest in a giveaway for them? 30-40 devices, a mixture of -relay and -dimmer, with a couple of -timer and -remotes. I'd been meaning to put them up on ebay or something like that but I'm sure I'll never get around to it.

I'd be interested. I always wanted to have an automated home, but all the money gets put toward other more important things.