Insteon Lights Turning Off

[gatchel]

It seems that whenever I send X-10 commands to A1 and A2 I get the corresponding Insteon device to follow. An X-10 command from my bedroom Mini-Timer seems to be translating through the Elk panel, A1 turns on and off Insteon Device 1 and A2 turns on and off Insteon Device 2. I programmed the Elk links using the Elk "on" command not using Powerhome utility.

This is actually normal beahvior and is working the way it should. You can mix X-10 with Insteon with the ELK but they can't share the same lighting device numbers. For example, A1 is lighting device number one A2 is lighting device number two and so on... If you move your X-10 devices to lighting device numbers higher than your total number of Insteon devices this will stop. I keep X-10 in the Lighting device range of 88 to 192 (starting at K1) to since links start at 193.

I don't get it. I am sending an X-10 control A1 to control my local light in the bedroom. The kitchen light turns on which has no associated X-10 address programmed to it. The kitchen light is a Togglelinc V2 with no X-10 address programmed into it or accociated to it in any way. When I send the X-10 A1 on command the PLC is picking this up and the Elk Serial expander or panel is making the decision to send the corresponding Insteon address on command in the lighting 1 or A1 spot. I don't see this this as normal. The Elk panel connected to the PLC is acting as some sort on X-10 to Insteon converter.

Here's what I just did:

I reflashed the firmware on the XSP.I hooked the PLC back up to the XSP. I confirmed that I have no control from the Elk Keypad to the insteon devices. That are listed. I went to the bedroom and cycled the A1 lamp on the same power strip as the mini timer on and off. The light would come on when on was pressed and go off when off was pressed then quickly turn on then off. I did this several times and was successful at getting the quick repeat after turning the lamp off. I then unplugged the RJ-45 from the PLC and now the light follows my on and off commands exactly, no repeating, no phantom control. Plug the PLC RJ-45 back in and the phantom on and off comes back.

I now linked the insteon devices to the ELk and changed the order. Light 1 is now a table lamp and light 2 is now the kitchen lamp. If I turn on my A1 x-10 lamp in the bedroom the table lamp (Device 1) now comes on. I know it's definitely not the Insteon devices and that they are not programmed with x-10 addresses. If I unplug the PLC RJ-45 connector A1 does not control Insteon Device 1.

I understand that you can mix X-10 with Insteon but I thought that the way this was done was uning a TW523 or equivalent on the Elk main X-10 port while also using the XSP with an Insteon 2414S PLC, setting the X-10 devices to Standard or Extended and the insteon devices to Serial expander.

I posted this because it does not seem right that the ELk should convert x-10 to Insteon. The Elk should only be sending insteon comands when it needs to control a device. My other thought is that some "noise" that looks like an x-10 signal or a stray x-10 signal from a neighbors house could trigger insteon devices with the Elk acting in this fashion. The workaround for now will be to simply turn the house code dial on 3 or 4 devices until I replace them with insteon. I just don't want my nieghbors A-3 on command to turn my Insteon Device 3, especially if it's not just a simple light. Especially when I am 100% Insteon.

Maybe this is the way the ELk is supposed to work. Any Elk employees (Spanky) please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

[opie]

I posted this because it does not seem right that the ELk should convert x-10 to Insteon. The Elk should only be sending insteon comands when it needs to control a device. My other thought is that some "noise" that looks like an x-10 signal or a stray x-10 signal from a neighbors house could trigger insteon devices with the Elk acting in this fashion. The workaround for now will be to simply turn the house code dial on 3 or 4 devices until I replace them with insteon. I just don't want my nieghbors A-3 on command to turn my Insteon Device 3, especially if it's not just a simple light. Especially when I am 100% Insteon.

Maybe this is the way the ELk is supposed to work. Any Elk employees (Spanky) please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

From page 20 of the M1XSP manual:

Operating BOTH Insteon and X-10 devices with a Powerlinc 2414S and M1XSP: (M1XSP Jumper S5) The M1XSP has the ability to transmit and receive both Insteon and X-10 commands through the Powerlinc 2414S Serial Controller. It works as follows: Upon activation of a Lighting device the M1XSP (with Insteon Firmware) will send Insteon commands for the lighting devices number that have an Insteon "linked" address. It sends X-10 commands for the lighting devices that do not have an Insteon "linked" address. This can eliminate the need for a separate X-10 PSC05 or TW523 Interface provided some tradeoffs and limitations are acceptable. For example: No X-10 devices can have a House/Unit code that conflicts with any present or future linked Insteon device locations. M1/EZ8 Lighting devices are numbered 1 (A01) to 256 (P16). See the chart on the next page. Insteon device linking BEGINS at Lighting device 1 (A01) and ENDS at 192 (L16). For this reason, avoid X-10 House/Unit codes in the extreme low numbers. Furthermore, no X-10 House/Unit codes can be assigned to light device addresses 193 (M1) through 256 (P16), as these are reserved for Insteon Groups and special commands. There is an option to eliminate Groups and free up addresses 193 (M1) to 254 (P14). See note N2 below.

N1. With the M1XSP S5 Jumper set to "0" (DN) (factory setting), the M1XSP supports a total of 192 individual Insteon or X-10 Lights and 63 Insteon Groups. It cannot support X-10 devices with a House/Unit code of M1 or above in this setting.

N2. With the M1XSP S5 Jumper set to "1" (UP), Insteon groups will be disabled and X-10 devices at addresses 193 (M01) through 254 (P14) will be allowed. Insteon Groups are disabled with S5 in the "1" (UP) position.

N3. It is important to note that the optional Insteon RF Signal Enhancers DO NOT provide phase bridging or enhance/extend traditional X-10 transmissions. An X-10 bridge/coupler will still be required for this purpose.

N4. Use the ElkRP software to program the format for any X-10 devices to "Serial Expander". Assign a name, type, and set the
"show" options. This should also be done for any Insteon devices, at least on Light devices 1 to 192.

N5. Transmitted X-10 commands are limited to On, Off, and Preset Dim (provided the X-10 devices support preset). Received X-10 commands passed from the Powerlinc to the M1XSP are limited to On and Off states ONLY.

Once you are 100% Insteon, it appears you can disable X-10 communications with jumper S5. I hope this makes more sense now.

 

[gatchel]

Thanks for the help.

I read the manual several times and assumed that the only reason for not using the extereme low numbers is to "eliminate the need for a separate X-10 PSC05 or TW523".

What I still don't understand is why the ELK is acting as a repeater or translator. I understand that you can not use the extreme low numbers because that where Insteon addresses are enrolled BUT it still doesn't make sence why the Elk panel takes a randomly recieved an"A1 ON" and decides to send out an ON to the Device 1 insteon device.

Essentially this means that I either have to disable the X-10 functionality all together or accept the fact that if my neighbor sends an M1 ON command that every light in the house that is Insteon controlled will turn on because of my PLC group 1 is all lights...

See my point?


Opie, Thanks again for your help.

I guess I will have to call Elk this week to see if this is the way Elk M1XSP is intended to operate and decide whether of not to disable the X-10 and buy some more Insteon Plug In's.

 

[gatchel]

I just spoke to Elk tech support and they confirmed my issue which isn't lights turning off but the mapping of an X-10 signal from an X-10 transmitter to a programmed Link to an Insteon device on the Elk. The engineer confirmed that if an Elk recieves an X-10 command where an Insteon device is linked it is possible to have the x-10 command trigger the insteon device.

Example:

Elk Receives and A1 ON command, the Insteon Device Linked in the Device 1 (a1) location turns on. The Elk is acting as a x-10 to Insteon Translator.

The work around as the manual states is to not have overlapping addresses not only to leave room for Insteon devices but so X-10 commands are not translated to Insteon.

They know it is an issue and may decide to rework that portion in a future release.

 

[pkoslow]

I've been running the new M1XSP Insteon firmware for a few days now and have not had any problems with the "Ghost" offs any more.

Trouble is that with the new firmware, the system is no longer aware of local key presses so any automation rules triggered by manually turning lights on/off no longer work.

I've swapped a couple emails with Elk Tech and they confirmed this to be a issue so looks like I've just swapped one problem for another.

According to Elk Tech "If the switch is controlling a load directly and not sending a group command AND the 2414S is linked to the switch, then you should see status changes when you turn a light on/off locally."

Since most all my switches are sending group commands, this still remains a signifigant issue...

Curious to hear the results from any others who are using the new Beta firmware?

Sounds like there still working on the problem, but no estimated time for a fix.

Cheers,
Paul

 

[opie]

I've been running the new M1XSP Insteon firmware for a few days now and have not had any problems with the "Ghost" offs any more.

Trouble is that with the new firmware, the system is no longer aware of local key presses so any automation rules triggered by manually turning lights on/off no longer work.

I've swapped a couple emails with Elk Tech and they confirmed this to be a issue so looks like I've just swapped one problem for another.

Bummer!

I was hoping they had this licked. I have about two months before a major install of 2 ELK+Insteon units in a duplex. Each unit also has a TS-07 so I really want the updating to work right.

I have still not been seeing the "ghost off" and my status stays pretty in sync but I'm not sure how I fixed it. I should know better than to change several things at once.

 

[snhroc]

So interesting. I thought the ghost off's or ghost on-and-dim's were gone with the beta firmware. But now I'm seeing different behavior. Every few days my M1XSP seems to lose all the Insteon ID's in it and thereby the ability to control anything. How do I know? When I do a retreive using powerhome's elkinsteon.exe, I get 00.00.00 as the Insteon address for devices that were previously populated with real addresses. The PLC appears to still have the addresses. Not sure if this is a problem unique to me, or whether anyone else has seen this as well. When I reload the insteon addresses into the M1XSP using Elkinsteon.exe, things work fine for several days. This has happened to me twice since upgrading the firmware to the beta - so not sure if that has anything to do with it, or whether something else is wrong.

 

[MrGibbage]

Has anyone tried the firmware released on Feb 20th? Did it fix any of these problems? From the release notes, it sounds like everything should be good now.

1.) Polling for status after a manual switch press - Added a new routine to make the M1XSP poll a device if it detects release of the on or off switch. This should improve the ability for the M1 to get the level (instead of just on and off) of the light after a local switch press.
2.) Polling for status after a group command - Added a new routine to make the M1XSP poll devices that were controlled by the group command AS LONG AS the controller sends the group cleanup messages. CAUTION! Not all controllers send the cleanup messages. Also, if another command needs to be sent the cleanup messages are generally discarded.
3.) Reports of the M1XSP losing the programmed Insteon ID numbers after a power reset - A modification has been made to the flash memory write routine to provide additional protection against this possibility.
4.) Reports of lights changing levels a short period after the light is manually changed - It was found that this could be caused after the PLC receives a group command. A modification has been made to the way the data is parsed which should resolve this possibility.

 

[MrGibbage]

Now that this release has been out for a while (I haven't installed it yet), can anyone tell me if it fixed the "lights turning off by themselves" problem?

Skip

 

[Digger]

. Every few days my M1XSP seems to lose all the Insteon ID's in it and thereby the ability to control anything. How do I know? When I do a retreive using powerhome's elkinsteon.exe, I get 00.00.00 as the Insteon address for devices that were previously populated with real addresses. The PLC appears to still have the addresses. Not sure if this is a problem unique to me, or whether anyone else has seen this as well. When I reload the insteon addresses into the M1XSP using Elkinsteon.exe, things work fine for several days. This has happened to me twice since upgrading the firmware to the beta - so not sure if that has anything to do with it, or whether something else is wrong.

I am occasionally losing just a few of the address's. Always address 1 and 7. I only have about 14 or 15 in the system right now.

 

[WayneW]

Now that this release has been out for a while (I haven't installed it yet), can anyone tell me if it fixed the "lights turning off by themselves" problem?

Yup, it has for me. And I haven't seen the dropping issue Digger has, but I don't use lights 1-16 (A1-A16) due to habits from X-10 days to avoid housecode A.

 

[opie]

I haven't had the lights turning out issue anymore with the latest firmware nor have I lost any devices in the ELK Lighting table.

My only issue remaining with ELK controlling Insteon lights is that the light status is still not very reliable. For instance, I have a rule that turns on my counter lighs via an X-10 appliance module when the kitchen lights are turned on and it's dark. This only seems to work about 20% of the time. Also, the light status is usually out of sync on my touch screens. I tried polling but it makes my X-10 switches act nuts. Eventually I want to get rid of all X-10 but I still have several lights I want to control that do not have a neutral in the box.

I would think this is a noise or signal strength issue, but Indigo on my Mac picks up about 95% of the status changes. I have also tried putting the ELK's PowerLinc in the same outlet Indigo uses with no improvement.

But, I sure am glad the "Ghosting" is fixed the WAF on Automated Lighting was just about to the limit.

 

[pkoslow]

I'm in the same boat with Opie.

No more lights turning off, but the Elk is never aware of ANY local changes at the light switches.

I don't really care so much about the status being off, but I do have a number of events (Elk Rules & HomeSeer Events) that were triggered by local keypress.

Haven't had much time to troubleshoot, but for now having the Insteon switches reliably control switch based scene lighting is more important than the event triggers.

Would be interested to hear if anyone is getting reliable status using the latest firmware?

Cheers,
Paul

 

[emasshardt]

so what issues remain with ELK and Insteon controller/devices? i haven't yet integrated my Insteon devices into the ELK and reading this doesn't put me in a hurry to do it

i read numerous posts that seemed to indicate powerhome can make the process of enrolling all the insteon devices into insteon controller as well as the ELK M1. is this true? does homeseer for the pc or indigo for the mac either have this capability?

any other recommendations, suggestions or tricks for getting all your insteon devices set up and linked into the ELK?

thanks in advance.

 

[opie]

so what issues remain with ELK and Insteon controller/devices? i haven't yet integrated my Insteon devices into the ELK and reading this doesn't put me in a hurry to do it

i read numerous posts that seemed to indicate powerhome can make the process of enrolling all the insteon devices into insteon controller as well as the ELK M1. is this true? does homeseer for the pc or indigo for the mac either have this capability?

any other recommendations, suggestions or tricks for getting all your insteon devices set up and linked into the ELK?

thanks in advance.

My situation remains about the same.

Rock solid when I have the ELK actuate a light but status is still the main problem. As I understand it, the just released update to ELK RP allows you to read a file from the ISY-26 which should fix most of the remaining issues with ELK+Insteon but I haven't been able to try this yet. I am anxious to hear if someone gets this working and how it's done. I haven't found any documentation on this other than in the release notes to ELK RP and that only indicates it's possible.

What you heard about PowerHome is true. I don't know about HomeSeer but I do know Indigo does not currently have this ablilty. I suspect link management will come soon to Indigo but wouldn't really help with the ELK at all.

Don't be too discouraged, things are constantly improving and for the most part work very well.

Good Luck.