Insteon vs UPB (again)

[Event5]

As UPB has a much stronger (40volt) signal; when a scene(link) is transmitted all devices in the link, maybe 100 devices on a whole house scene, see the signal (nearly) at the same time. The signal activity on the powerline lasts less then a second.

On a similar scene, how long would Insteon's (4volts) signal bounce around the powerline, before another command can be sent?

Thanks
Dave

 

[MikeB]

After following this thread the past few days I feel I need to post my experience with Insteon.

I've been using Insteon with HomeSeer for the past 2 years. I've encountered only two issues, that's right ... 2. The first was with the PLC/SDM combo, it simply did not work well with HomeSeer. Whether it was bad programming by Smarthome or by the HomeSeer plug-in, I don't know. But it just didn't work well.

I then switched over to the PLM. Which brings me to the second issue I had, lockups. This was fixed by Smarthome and they swapped out my PLM without question or cost to me. I have not had a single lockup since!

I have just over 50 Insteon devices in my system. I have not had a single switch, module, or keypad go belly up. I believe others when they say their experience is different, very different. But this is one very happy Insteon user, period!

The HomeSeer plug-in has also come a long way. I can only speak for the PLM version but on my system it is rock solid. All of my lighting is controlled using motion sensors and the BLRadar plug-in. Basically, you walk into a room, it senses motion, the lights come on.

I not interested in a debate or a cat fight over Insteon. I simply wanted to post that not all Insteon users have had the problems that a few users have had (again, I'm not doubting that you did). Remember, most people that don't have a problem, don't post!

I think you hit the nail on the head. There are certainly legitimate complaints to be made against Smarthome. Plenty of people have had issues, but I think most will say that Smarthome has treated them well. Some have stuck with Insteon during the early issues and are happy now, others have moved on to a competing product and are happy now. Some, who may have had legitimate issues, now make negative posts only to further their personal agenda.

That being said, happy users tend to be quiet users.

I've been using Insteon for about 2 years now. Though I haven't had nearly the # of failed devices that some have had, I have had a handful of my earlier switches go bad that Smarthome replaced without complaint (and even paid for return shipping). Any failure is a huge pain, but Smarhome made it as painless as possible.

 

[MikeB]

As UPB has a much stronger (40volt) signal; when a scene(link) is transmitted all devices in the link, maybe 100 devices on a whole house scene, see the signal (nearly) at the same time. The signal activity on the powerline lasts less then a second.

On a similar scene, how long would Insteon's (4volts) signal bounce around the powerline, before another command can be sent?

I have a few large Insteon scenes (70+ devices), and all responding devices react instantaneously to my eyes. For example, I have a 'whole-house off' button I use when I leave my house. I obviously can't see every light in my house, but I can see a large # of them from my garage door. When I press that button, all lights within sight turn off instantaneously.

I think what takes up the most powerline traffic is, as a previous poster mentioned, not the scene command itself but the 'cleanup' commands sent afterwards. After a controller sends a command to a scene (or group), it follows up by sending direct commands to each member of that group to ensure they received the original command and acted appropriately. If you have a large scene, I think those cleanup commands can last several seconds.

BUT, if another command enters the powerline while that cleanup command is still running, the cleanup should abort and give priority to the new command so it SHOULD run without issue.

I don't claim to be an expert on the Insteon protocol, but that's my understanding on how it works.

 

[Event5]

BUT, if another command enters the powerline while that cleanup command is still running, the cleanup should abort and give priority to the new command so it SHOULD run without issue.

Thanks, Mike, for the quick response.

I just checked with Web Mountain. Their SW-7 switch is the SA US240 with Gen 2 firmware. Their products are avaiable from Digital AV Here

This website answers a lot of questions about UPB and also has an interesting "Killer Apps" page.

Dave

 

[Digger]

As UPB has a much stronger (40volt) signal; when a scene(link) is transmitted all devices in the link, maybe 100 devices on a whole house scene, see the signal (nearly) at the same time. The signal activity on the powerline lasts less then a second.

On a similar scene, how long would Insteon's (4volts) signal bounce around the powerline, before another command can be sent?

Thanks
Dave

I believe Insteon would send the command and it "may" be repeated several times through the mesh before the next command could be processed. If the next command comes in before the repeating is completed it "may" be lost (cleanup commands aside). This is where UPB "may" have an advantage over Insteon.

I also think there would be a LOT less traffic on a UPB system then an Insteon system since there is no repeating of commands all of the time. That alone might minimize problems.

 

[drozwood90]

As UPB has a much stronger (40volt) signal; when a scene(link) is transmitted all devices in the link, maybe 100 devices on a whole house scene, see the signal (nearly) at the same time. The signal activity on the powerline lasts less then a second.

On a similar scene, how long would Insteon's (4volts) signal bounce around the powerline, before another command can be sent?

Thanks
Dave

I believe Insteon would send the command and it "may" be repeated several times through the mesh before the next command could be processed. If the next command comes in before the repeating is completed it "may" be lost (cleanup commands aside). This is where UPB "may" have an advantage over Insteon.

I also think there would be a LOT less traffic on a UPB system then an Insteon system since there is no repeating of commands all of the time. That alone might minimize problems.

that's why I went UPB. I just finished installing my house (over the weekend). 29 switches! It took me 3 hours to get all of them programmed with all the proper Links (to make the 4-way and 3-way switches work properly), as well as to add in the split face plates to allow me to put "more" switches where I needed them (the dining room switch was in a goofy spot, so I "fixed" that by splitting a "closer" US2-40 and making one side control the load, and the other control the "remote".

Works great! What's really great, is if my Homeseer PC is down, I do NOT need it up to control all the lights. That is what is great about the links (similar to Insteon scenes).

Mind you, I had my house BUILT with neutrals in every box...so about 12 hours to re-wire...3 hours for software. I was also shooting from the hip. I did NOT plan it out ahead of time (or it probably would have taken me less time to program them...).

I vote for UPB. I don't even have a coupler installed right now...and my signal strength is through the roof for the opposite phase.


Plus, you just CAN'T have better service / support / help, then Martin and his team gives over at Automated Outlet. I just can't say enough nice things about them. They are GREAT to work with...in fact is was Martin who sold me on UPB. I was having trouble with my X10 / Insteon stuff. He told me to try it out, if I did not like it he'd take it back, I'd just have to pay the shipping. Boy, I'm so glad he said that. I've loved UPB ever since!

--Dan

 

[MikeB]

This website answers a lot of questions about UPB and also has an interesting "Killer Apps" page.

The Web Mountain guys seem great from talking to them at the 2007 EHX show (I don't think I saw them at the most recent EHX).

On a side note, but possibly relevant to the thread - UPB is currently lacking native RF, BUT at the most recent EHX PCS was showing some very cool battery-less remote controls for UPB. I don't recall the technology they were based on, but maybe someone else here could shed some light. I haven't heard anything about it since, and have no idea on pricing or availability.

 

[Digger]

As UPB has a much stronger (40volt) signal; when a scene(link) is transmitted all devices in the link, maybe 100 devices on a whole house scene, see the signal (nearly) at the same time. The signal activity on the powerline lasts less then a second.

On a similar scene, how long would Insteon's (4volts) signal bounce around the powerline, before another command can be sent?

Thanks
Dave

I believe Insteon would send the command and it "may" be repeated several times through the mesh before the next command could be processed. If the next command comes in before the repeating is completed it "may" be lost (cleanup commands aside). This is where UPB "may" have an advantage over Insteon.

I also think there would be a LOT less traffic on a UPB system then an Insteon system since there is no repeating of commands all of the time. That alone might minimize problems.

that's why I went UPB. I just finished installing my house (over the weekend). 29 switches! It took me 3 hours to get all of them programmed with all the proper Links (to make the 4-way and 3-way switches work properly), as well as to add in the split face plates to allow me to put "more" switches where I needed them (the dining room switch was in a goofy spot, so I "fixed" that by splitting a "closer" US2-40 and making one side control the load, and the other control the "remote".

Works great! What's really great, is if my Homeseer PC is down, I do NOT need it up to control all the lights. That is what is great about the links (similar to Insteon scenes).

Mind you, I had my house BUILT with neutrals in every box...so about 12 hours to re-wire...3 hours for software. I was also shooting from the hip. I did NOT plan it out ahead of time (or it probably would have taken me less time to program them...).

I vote for UPB. I don't even have a coupler installed right now...and my signal strength is through the roof for the opposite phase.


Plus, you just CAN'T have better service / support / help, then Martin and his team gives over at Automated Outlet. I just can't say enough nice things about them. They are GREAT to work with...in fact is was Martin who sold me on UPB. I was having trouble with my X10 / Insteon stuff. He told me to try it out, if I did not like it he'd take it back, I'd just have to pay the shipping. Boy, I'm so glad he said that. I've loved UPB ever since!

--Dan

Dam now you have me seriously considering dumping nearly $4000 in Insteon and going UPB. I hate the weak signal strength of the Insteon and the repeating of the signals.

 

[Event5]

This website answers a lot of questions about UPB and also has an interesting "Killer Apps" page.

The Web Mountain guys seem great from talking to them at the 2007 EHX show (I don't think I saw them at the most recent EHX).

On a side note, but possibly relevant to the thread - UPB is currently lacking native RF, BUT at the most recent EHX PCS was showing some very cool battery-less remote controls for UPB. I don't recall the technology they were based on, but maybe someone else here could shed some light. I haven't heard anything about it since, and have no idea on pricing or availability.

Mike,

This is not my thread but your RF comment seems relevent to system sellection. Yes UPB does not have a "native" RF interface, however the WGL UPB572 is a great RF receiver with UPB output. Any existing x10 RF device (maybe not securty) can be received by this device and UPB scenes and devices can be controlled. Motion sensors, keyfobs, RF remotes work great. Check it out Here

Dave

 

[LightenUP]

Web Mountain has been the prefered vendor for all of our needs. They are the best for support when needed and improving the product.

The delay is NOT GEN II. That is a seperate issue from the noise protocal.

Lots of movement with UPB right now also. I believe it will become more dominate as other devices adopt the technology.

I have used X-10, Z-wave, for years but am anly using UPB from Web Mountain currently and see no reason to change. The issues that have shown up have all been resolvable and the issues are less and less with Gen II.

Good luck,,,,,do it right the first time is my advice.

Matt

 

[Event5]

I've been using Insteon for about 2 years now. Though I haven't had nearly the # of failed devices that some have had, I have had a handful of my earlier switches go bad that Smarthome replaced without complaint (and even paid for return shipping). Any failure is a huge pain, but Smarhome made it as painless as possible.

While following all the threads discussing Insteon over the last few years, I have found it interesting that one of the reasons to use the Insteon protocal was the manufactures customer service/ replacement policy???

Dave

 

[MikeB]

This is not my thread but your RF comment seems relevent to system sellection. Yes UPB does not have a "native" RF interface, however the WGL UPB572 is a great RF receiver with UPB output. Any existing x10 RF device (maybe not securty) can be received by this device and UPB scenes and devices can be controlled. Motion sensors, keyfobs, RF remotes work great. Check it out Here

Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm a big fan of the WGL V572A which I use to control my Insteon lighting via X10 remotes and motion sensors. With the antenna located in my attic, I'm able to get about 300' of range up my driveway (uphill) with an X10 keychain remote. Can't complain about that!

There are advantages to a native RF protocol, however - such as thermostats. I'm able to control my home HVAC using a standard Venstar 5-wire thermostat + Insteon RF module. I think 2-way native RF is important, and my understanding is that PCS is working on it.

 

[Digger]

This is not my thread but your RF comment seems relevent to system sellection. Yes UPB does not have a "native" RF interface, however the WGL UPB572 is a great RF receiver with UPB output. Any existing x10 RF device (maybe not securty) can be received by this device and UPB scenes and devices can be controlled. Motion sensors, keyfobs, RF remotes work great. Check it out Here

Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm a big fan of the WGL V572A which I use to control my Insteon lighting via X10 remotes and motion sensors. With the antenna located in my attic, I'm able to get about 300' of range up my driveway (uphill) with an X10 keychain remote. Can't complain about that!

There are advantages to a native RF protocol, however - such as thermostats. I'm able to control my home HVAC using a standard Venstar 5-wire thermostat + Insteon RF module. I think 2-way native RF is important, and my understanding is that PCS is working on it.

So you can control this thermostat over the internet, through your cell phone, or through automation software?

 

[sloop]

After following this thread the past few days I feel I need to post my experience with Insteon.

I've been using Insteon with HomeSeer for the past 2 years. I've encountered only two issues, that's right ... 2. The first was with the PLC/SDM combo, it simply did not work well with HomeSeer. Whether it was bad programming by Smarthome or by the HomeSeer plug-in, I don't know. But it just didn't work well.

I then switched over to the PLM. Which brings me to the second issue I had, lockups. This was fixed by Smarthome and they swapped out my PLM without question or cost to me. I have not had a single lockup since!

I have just over 50 Insteon devices in my system. I have not had a single switch, module, or keypad go belly up. I believe others when they say their experience is different, very different. But this is one very happy Insteon user, period!

The HomeSeer plug-in has also come a long way. I can only speak for the PLM version but on my system it is rock solid. All of my lighting is controlled using motion sensors and the BLRadar plug-in. Basically, you walk into a room, it senses motion, the lights come on.

I not interested in a debate or a cat fight over Insteon. I simply wanted to post that not all Insteon users have had the problems that a few users have had (again, I'm not doubting that you did). Remember, most people that don't have a problem, don't post!

I think you hit the nail on the head. There are certainly legitimate complaints to be made against Smarthome. Plenty of people have had issues, but I think most will say that Smarthome has treated them well. Some have stuck with Insteon during the early issues and are happy now, others have moved on to a competing product and are happy now. Some, who may have had legitimate issues, now make negative posts only to further their personal agenda.

That being said, happy users tend to be quiet users.

I've been using Insteon for about 2 years now. Though I haven't had nearly the # of failed devices that some have had, I have had a handful of my earlier switches go bad that Smarthome replaced without complaint (and even paid for return shipping). Any failure is a huge pain, but Smarhome made it as painless as possible.

i assume you are talking about me again - and i am pretty much down on smarthome and their products - and i will remind you again that i have thousands invested in craplincs and zero financial stake in insteon products

why not answer the negative comments instead of dismissing them? this 'negative' poster with a 'personal agenda' has explained why he is down on insteon - my opinion is that it is junk - my 'personal agenda' is to warn others so they won't make the same mistake

when one of my plms went bricklinc on me (because i exceeded the link limit), i could get zero information from smarthome on IF there would be a new plm - rumors and 'hope' were all there was - can you please address why customers that have spent about $10,000 with a company can get no information? then maybe why smarthome would not admit to the 'paddle problem' for years. addressing two complaints is a good start

this 'negative' poster with a 'personal agenda' would like specific complaints addressed from the insteon apologists

 

[sloop]

As UPB has a much stronger (40volt) signal; when a scene(link) is transmitted all devices in the link, maybe 100 devices on a whole house scene, see the signal (nearly) at the same time. The signal activity on the powerline lasts less then a second.

On a similar scene, how long would Insteon's (4volts) signal bounce around the powerline, before another command can be sent?

I have a few large Insteon scenes (70+ devices), and all responding devices react instantaneously to my eyes. For example, I have a 'whole-house off' button I use when I leave my house. I obviously can't see every light in my house, but I can see a large # of them from my garage door. When I press that button, all lights within sight turn off instantaneously.

I think what takes up the most powerline traffic is, as a previous poster mentioned, not the scene command itself but the 'cleanup' commands sent afterwards. After a controller sends a command to a scene (or group), it follows up by sending direct commands to each member of that group to ensure they received the original command and acted appropriately. If you have a large scene, I think those cleanup commands can last several seconds.

BUT, if another command enters the powerline while that cleanup command is still running, the cleanup should abort and give priority to the new command so it SHOULD run without issue.

I don't claim to be an expert on the Insteon protocol, but that's my understanding on how it works.

i disagree that the protocol 'SHOULD' abandon a work request if there is no other mechanism to be sure that request is honored

i am no unix nerd, but in the course of addressing problems learned that if a socket's listen queue is full, new work requests are thrown out - but if i make a request and do not get the work done, i can track that and retry the request

with insteon, there is no way for me to do that - maybe i should use houselinc to constantly test and retry adding to the powerline traffic?

insteon is the product line for people with really, really low expectations