Insteon vs UPB (again)

[sloop]

As UPB has a much stronger (40volt) signal; when a scene(link) is transmitted all devices in the link, maybe 100 devices on a whole house scene, see the signal (nearly) at the same time. The signal activity on the powerline lasts less then a second.

On a similar scene, how long would Insteon's (4volts) signal bounce around the powerline, before another command can be sent?

Thanks
Dave

I believe Insteon would send the command and it "may" be repeated several times through the mesh before the next command could be processed. If the next command comes in before the repeating is completed it "may" be lost (cleanup commands aside). This is where UPB "may" have an advantage over Insteon.

I also think there would be a LOT less traffic on a UPB system then an Insteon system since there is no repeating of commands all of the time. That alone might minimize problems.

that's why I went UPB. I just finished installing my house (over the weekend). 29 switches! It took me 3 hours to get all of them programmed with all the proper Links (to make the 4-way and 3-way switches work properly), as well as to add in the split face plates to allow me to put "more" switches where I needed them (the dining room switch was in a goofy spot, so I "fixed" that by splitting a "closer" US2-40 and making one side control the load, and the other control the "remote".

Works great! What's really great, is if my Homeseer PC is down, I do NOT need it up to control all the lights. That is what is great about the links (similar to Insteon scenes).

Mind you, I had my house BUILT with neutrals in every box...so about 12 hours to re-wire...3 hours for software. I was also shooting from the hip. I did NOT plan it out ahead of time (or it probably would have taken me less time to program them...).

I vote for UPB. I don't even have a coupler installed right now...and my signal strength is through the roof for the opposite phase.


Plus, you just CAN'T have better service / support / help, then Martin and his team gives over at Automated Outlet. I just can't say enough nice things about them. They are GREAT to work with...in fact is was Martin who sold me on UPB. I was having trouble with my X10 / Insteon stuff. He told me to try it out, if I did not like it he'd take it back, I'd just have to pay the shipping. Boy, I'm so glad he said that. I've loved UPB ever since!

--Dan

i called martin's automated outlet store one night about 23:00 - thinking i would get a recording telling me the hours of operation (his store is a copule of burbs over from me) - he answered - i told him i needed one outletlinc but was reluctant to buy from smarthome (they never answered the question of if they were the source of all the credit card info getting out) - i think he knew my story from my 'negative' complaints (sloop's a legend like that) - he said if i wanted to convert to upb, he would refund all my money if i had problems

i talked to him about the north texas home automation users' group - he said there was 1 (one - as in not zero - but one) insteon member

never did get that outlet

 

[sloop]

This website answers a lot of questions about UPB and also has an interesting "Killer Apps" page.

The Web Mountain guys seem great from talking to them at the 2007 EHX show (I don't think I saw them at the most recent EHX).

On a side note, but possibly relevant to the thread - UPB is currently lacking native RF, BUT at the most recent EHX PCS was showing some very cool battery-less remote controls for UPB. I don't recall the technology they were based on, but maybe someone else here could shed some light. I haven't heard anything about it since, and have no idea on pricing or availability.

insteon lacks motion sensors and keyfobs and - and - and

 

[Digger]

After following this thread the past few days I feel I need to post my experience with Insteon.

I've been using Insteon with HomeSeer for the past 2 years. I've encountered only two issues, that's right ... 2. The first was with the PLC/SDM combo, it simply did not work well with HomeSeer. Whether it was bad programming by Smarthome or by the HomeSeer plug-in, I don't know. But it just didn't work well.

I then switched over to the PLM. Which brings me to the second issue I had, lockups. This was fixed by Smarthome and they swapped out my PLM without question or cost to me. I have not had a single lockup since!

I have just over 50 Insteon devices in my system. I have not had a single switch, module, or keypad go belly up. I believe others when they say their experience is different, very different. But this is one very happy Insteon user, period!

The HomeSeer plug-in has also come a long way. I can only speak for the PLM version but on my system it is rock solid. All of my lighting is controlled using motion sensors and the BLRadar plug-in. Basically, you walk into a room, it senses motion, the lights come on.

I not interested in a debate or a cat fight over Insteon. I simply wanted to post that not all Insteon users have had the problems that a few users have had (again, I'm not doubting that you did). Remember, most people that don't have a problem, don't post!

I think you hit the nail on the head. There are certainly legitimate complaints to be made against Smarthome. Plenty of people have had issues, but I think most will say that Smarthome has treated them well. Some have stuck with Insteon during the early issues and are happy now, others have moved on to a competing product and are happy now. Some, who may have had legitimate issues, now make negative posts only to further their personal agenda.

That being said, happy users tend to be quiet users.

I've been using Insteon for about 2 years now. Though I haven't had nearly the # of failed devices that some have had, I have had a handful of my earlier switches go bad that Smarthome replaced without complaint (and even paid for return shipping). Any failure is a huge pain, but Smarhome made it as painless as possible.

i assume you are talking about me again - and i am pretty much down on smarthome and their products - and i will remind you again that i have thousands invested in craplincs and zero financial stake in insteon products

why not answer the negative comments instead of dismissing them? this 'negative' poster with a 'personal agenda' has explained why he is down on insteon - my opinion is that it is junk - my 'personal agenda' is to warn others so they won't make the same mistake

when one of my plms went bricklinc on me (because i exceeded the link limit), i could get zero information from smarthome on IF there would be a new plm - rumors and 'hope' were all there was - can you please address why customers that have spent about $10,000 with a company can get no information? then maybe why smarthome would not admit to the 'paddle problem' for years. addressing two complaints is a good start

this 'negative' poster with a 'personal agenda' would like specific complaints addressed from the insteon apologists

Sloop,

We all know that some un-named person(s) have an affiliation with SH and feel compelled or are obligated to do what they do. Let it go as you will never win with them. There are several people on another forum that are similary compelled or obligated to do such things. A year ago I shared with you the emails from SH where they tried the same thing with me and I refused and everyone saw the grief they gave me on warranty exchanges etc after I refused to play their games and be a cheerleader and try and mislead people when I knew for a fact (and by SH written admission) that they were knowingly selling products with defects and at the time not honoring the warranty (which they now are so its over, dead, and burried). They wanted me to be a cheerleader and offered me the Insteon user of the month and free merchandise for my wife etc if I would pretend that there was nothing wrong with the tact swtches. I could not go around telling people that everything was fine and it was a very isolated case etc as I refused to lie about it. Interestingly enough that person is no longer with SH I was told and also at the same time they extended the warranty to 5 additional years and replaced mine for me (after 12 months of grief).

Now the state of SH products has improved and if they continue to improve they wont need people to do these things for them. There is no longer a need to cover up the problems at SH as I think they are really trying to fix them.

If you want your problems fixed try meeting SH part way and I think the new people will do the right thing and help you.

Again I would give up trying to convince the SH fans that there were/are problems with the hardware and firmware as you will never convince them these problems were real and widespread to a degree.

This post is not directed at one person in particular except for Sloop who I am only trying to help.

 

[Digger]

As UPB has a much stronger (40volt) signal; when a scene(link) is transmitted all devices in the link, maybe 100 devices on a whole house scene, see the signal (nearly) at the same time. The signal activity on the powerline lasts less then a second.

On a similar scene, how long would Insteon's (4volts) signal bounce around the powerline, before another command can be sent?

Thanks
Dave

I believe Insteon would send the command and it "may" be repeated several times through the mesh before the next command could be processed. If the next command comes in before the repeating is completed it "may" be lost (cleanup commands aside). This is where UPB "may" have an advantage over Insteon.

I also think there would be a LOT less traffic on a UPB system then an Insteon system since there is no repeating of commands all of the time. That alone might minimize problems.

that's why I went UPB. I just finished installing my house (over the weekend). 29 switches! It took me 3 hours to get all of them programmed with all the proper Links (to make the 4-way and 3-way switches work properly), as well as to add in the split face plates to allow me to put "more" switches where I needed them (the dining room switch was in a goofy spot, so I "fixed" that by splitting a "closer" US2-40 and making one side control the load, and the other control the "remote".

Works great! What's really great, is if my Homeseer PC is down, I do NOT need it up to control all the lights. That is what is great about the links (similar to Insteon scenes).

Mind you, I had my house BUILT with neutrals in every box...so about 12 hours to re-wire...3 hours for software. I was also shooting from the hip. I did NOT plan it out ahead of time (or it probably would have taken me less time to program them...).

I vote for UPB. I don't even have a coupler installed right now...and my signal strength is through the roof for the opposite phase.


Plus, you just CAN'T have better service / support / help, then Martin and his team gives over at Automated Outlet. I just can't say enough nice things about them. They are GREAT to work with...in fact is was Martin who sold me on UPB. I was having trouble with my X10 / Insteon stuff. He told me to try it out, if I did not like it he'd take it back, I'd just have to pay the shipping. Boy, I'm so glad he said that. I've loved UPB ever since!

--Dan

i called martin's automated outlet store one night about 23:00 - thinking i would get a recording telling me the hours of operation (his store is a copule of burbs over from me) - he answered - i told him i needed one outletlinc but was reluctant to buy from smarthome (they never answered the question of if they were the source of all the credit card info getting out) - i think he knew my story from my 'negative' complaints (sloop's a legend like that) - he said if i wanted to convert to upb, he would refund all my money if i had problems

i talked to him about the north texas home automation users' group - he said there was 1 (one - as in not zero - but one) insteon member

never did get that outlet

Why dont you take AO up on their offer. If it works great. If it doesnt then return it as we all know Martin's warranty is real and he takes care of every customer he has. He would never mislead a customer (as I am sure many people can attest to).

BTW I wonder if he converted the lone Insteon user in the LoneStar state LOL (a joke not stating a fact).

 

[sloop]

If you want your problems fixed try meeting SH part way and I think the new people will do the right thing and help you.

well - i'd say because they have never offered to meet me half way or anywhere - every time i would call i got advice to buy more - which i always did

before the isy, i had to use houselinc to sync buttons using x10 addresses - the signals cannot get through - they said throw out my 'non-insteon blessed' boosterlinc and buy 2 new ones - another $200 that is in the junk pile - i set up all those scenes in houselinc (thousands of lines of code) - on their advice, i added a delay command between EVERY command - still would not work - that took me longer than the return policy allowed

i have no confidence that the maker of devices (that they deny have problems) can now make a device that works

i held out after each promise (remember some lady promised a new houselinc in two weeks? that was probably a year ago - now there is another promise that it will be 'fixed') and only returned ONE failed device - which they did readily - but i don't see them fulfilling their legal obligation to replace their failing devices as going above and beyond - when i called about a failed dimmer a 'joe' told me to buy another one and if it fixed the problem, call back to return the failed one

i got started in insteon because some of my smarthome x10 switches had the paddle problem - i returned to the smarthome web site to buy yet more - which were discontinued - the 2/way x10 switches cost more than the new insteon craplincs - so i started the conversion thinking i could use part x10 (you can't - at some point when converting x10 signals are sucked up) - then find the problem still exists with the insteon devices and smarthome would not even acknowledge it

as advised, i removed all my x10 (including stuff that STILL has no insteon equivalent) and bought 2 additional signallincs (that makes 4 for me) - no help - then bought the isy when it was introduced and placed the plc and houselinc in the pile of craplincs and x10 - universal devices helped SO much with my insteon - something smarthome had no interest in doing

i might have lied about returning one craplinc - i sent a plm in for 'testing' and got two calls saying it was testing ok - but that testing would continue - evidently, that supervisor was promoted and the plm is now in limbo - never heard back again from them - but ask the homeseer guys about how stuff gets dropped when people leave or move around

let's skip the 'plc replacement program' horror story - because as you know, i could go on and on and on - and usually do

we are told the 'happy insteon customers' are usually silent - i think the silence is from the unhappy insteon customers that do what the apologists want me to do - move on - forget about the thousands of dollars and: move on

i also don't see that smarthome is 'trying to do the right thing' - i don't think it can happen until one person in management leaves - evidently the high turnover rate has yet to get that one though - its almost like former marriage counselors were running things there

anyway - david can take it as a malcontent or as advice (a $10,000 'personal agenda')



btw - i suspect the 'tact switches' are the same in the insteon switches (all the ones before the new ones that are said to be 'fixed') and the x10 switches i had - if i send you one, would you bus sat thang open and compare them? i am curious if the very problem that got me into this insteon nightmare was in the products i bought to replace them

 

[sloop]

Why dont you take AO up on their offer. If it works great. If it doesnt then return it as we all know Martin's warranty is real and he takes care of every customer he has. He would never mislead a customer (as I am sure many people can attest to).

BTW I wonder if he converted the lone Insteon user in the LoneStar state LOL (a joke not stating a fact).

after more than a year of screwing with this stuff, i am kinda burned out on it - i have no estrogen (wife) to motivate me - maybe one day when i am rich but i hate throwing away all the money i have spent on craplincs - when i do, i will go talk to him about what i want done and the best products to do it

as i understand it, that user was contemplating changing - which is why i decided not to attend - i'd feel like a yugo driver in a meeting of rolls royce drivers

(do people that own a rolls royce drive their own cars?)

 

[KenM]

UPB is currently lacking native RF, BUT at the most recent EHX PCS was showing some very cool battery-less remote controls for UPB. I don't recall the technology they were based on, but maybe someone else here could shed some light. I haven't heard anything about it since, and have no idea on pricing or availability.

INSTEON wall switches are not native RF devices. The point was made that a RF adapter was available for UPB. The point 'should have been made' that the INSTEON RF adapter is called an 'Access Point' I believe. An adapter is an adapter, sorry.

Ken

 

[sloop]

so diggerdawgdammit - i did the 'bus sat thang open' and removed one of the microswitches - i will mail it tomorrow

i am curious if a now admitted problem existed in their x10 devices

 

[MikeB]

INSTEON wall switches are not native RF devices. The point was made that a RF adapter was available for UPB. The point 'should have been made' that the INSTEON RF adapter is called an 'Access Point' I believe. An adapter is an adapter, sorry.

Who said Insteon wall switches were RF?

There's a clear difference between a device that takes 1 protocol's RF commands and translates them 1-way to another protocol's powerline commands, based on a map that you define, and another device that simply rebroadcasts a single protocol's commands received via RF onto the powerline, and received via the powerline onto RF. One is a translator, another is a repeater.

 

[Digger]

INSTEON wall switches are not native RF devices. The point was made that a RF adapter was available for UPB. The point 'should have been made' that the INSTEON RF adapter is called an 'Access Point' I believe. An adapter is an adapter, sorry.

Who said Insteon wall switches were RF?

There's a clear difference between a device that takes 1 protocol's RF commands and translates them 1-way to another protocol's powerline commands, based on a map that you define, and another device that simply rebroadcasts a single protocol's commands received via RF onto the powerline, and received via the powerline onto RF. One is a translator, another is a repeater.

SH implies they are dual mesh and they are not (its misleading for a newbie unless you read the white paper). From the manual for the dimmer................

What is INSTEON?
INSTEON is a simple, reliable, and affordable breakthrough in home control. Simple, because Plug-n-
Tap™ setup is a breeze, and there are no wires to add – INSTEON uses existing powerline wiring as well
as radio-frequency for communication. Reliable, because every INSTEON device is a two-way repeater.
And affordable, not just because of low cost, but because INSTEON also works with legacy X10 devices.
An INSTEON home grows in value with every INSTEON device you add, making life more convenient,
safe and fun.

It also says that all devices are repeaters. I was not aware that the thermostats are repeaters. Is the Remotelinc a repeater all of the time? It also says there are no wires to add. You may have to add a neutral wire. It also says plug and tap. I forgot you could just plug in all of your dimmers and not hardwire them. Silly me.

All of their documentation is littered with things that would mislead someone new to this. We all know better and that the SH devices themselves are not dual mesh except for the accesspoints and rflinks but they are dumb devices and do not do anything but repeat signals. Name one device that when you push a button on it that the Insteon signal transmits on both the powerline and RF at the same time from the device you pushed the button on. If you can I will admit that device is dual mesh.

I read a bunch of UPB manuals and I did not see this type of misleading information.

 

[MikeB]

All of their documentation is littered with things that would mislead someone new to this.

And this is directed at me, why? If you have complaints about Smarthome's marketing materials, take it to them!

If you bought into Insteon thinking every device was both powerline and RF based on their marketing, then you have a complaint. All I can say is that when I started my Insteon install, it took me about 1 hour of reading to figure out the basics of how current Insteon devices worked. Maybe it's because I'm from the IT field, but when I read the Insteon whitepaper I read it as an ultimate protocol spec, and never assumed that every device would support all features of the protocol.

That being said, I can certainly see why a casual reader would, without doing further research, assume that all devices are RF and powerline. Of course, this isn't the first time a company makes vague statements in their marketing material to make their product look as good as possible. I see plenty on the PCS homepage, and am sure I would find plenty on ANY homepage. Here's an example for you:

UPBâ„¢ sizes existing powerlines, eliminating the need to pre-wire or pull new wire to install a system. Additionally, during the installation of typical PLC products, service callbacks are needed to install filters or repeaters to fix reliability issues. Because UPBâ„¢ products work right the first time, installers deploy once and no more service callbacks are required. The end result is a reduction of cost and significantly increased customer satisfaction.

No need to pull new wire? What if there's no neutral? Are they implying that UPB NEVER needs filters, or that installers NEVER have to go back to troubleshoot issues?

Of course not. They're saying that typically, UPB does not require new wire. Typically, UPB does not require filters. Typically, UPB is a reliable product in a typical home.

Yes, Insteon thermostats are RF repeaters. My understanding is that the RemoteLinc is a repeater when it is "on", but no when in "unused" low power mode to conserve batteries (but I'm not certain). Obviously if you purchase an in-wall device you don't just "plug it in" - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. In a properly installed Insteon system with a pair of AccessPoints, EVERY device broadcasts their commands via RF through the AccessPoint.

I refuse to get into another drawn out argument that you apparently love to have - I simply don't have the time or inclination.

I think it's apparent who in this thread is trying to help the original poster make an informed decision, and who is trying to push their own agenda.

I'll leave it at that.

 

[Digger]

All of their documentation is littered with things that would mislead someone new to this.

And this is directed at me, why? If you have complaints about Smarthome's marketing materials, take it to them!

If you bought into Insteon thinking every device was both powerline and RF based on their marketing, then you have a complaint. All I can say is that when I started my Insteon install, it took me about 1 hour of reading to figure out the basics of how current Insteon devices worked. Maybe it's because I'm from the IT field, but when I read the Insteon whitepaper I read it as an ultimate protocol spec, and never assumed that every device would support all features of the protocol.

That being said, I can certainly see why a casual reader would, without doing further research, assume that all devices are RF and powerline. Of course, this isn't the first time a company makes vague statements in their marketing material to make their product look as good as possible. I see plenty on the PCS homepage, and am sure I would find plenty on ANY homepage. Here's an example for you:

UPBâ„¢ sizes existing powerlines, eliminating the need to pre-wire or pull new wire to install a system. Additionally, during the installation of typical PLC products, service callbacks are needed to install filters or repeaters to fix reliability issues. Because UPBâ„¢ products work right the first time, installers deploy once and no more service callbacks are required. The end result is a reduction of cost and significantly increased customer satisfaction.

No need to pull new wire? What if there's no neutral? Are they implying that UPB NEVER needs filters, or that installers NEVER have to go back to troubleshoot issues?

Of course not. They're saying that typically, UPB does not require new wire. Typically, UPB does not require filters. Typically, UPB is a reliable product in a typical home.

Yes, Insteon thermostats are RF repeaters. My understanding is that the RemoteLinc is a repeater when it is "on", but no when in "unused" low power mode to conserve batteries (but I'm not certain). Obviously if you purchase an in-wall device you don't just "plug it in" - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. In a properly installed Insteon system with a pair of AccessPoints, EVERY device broadcasts their commands via RF through the AccessPoint.

I refuse to get into another drawn out argument that you apparently love to have - I simply don't have the time or inclination.

I think it's apparent who in this thread is trying to help the original poster make an informed decision, and who is trying to push their own agenda.

I'll leave it at that.

Well Mike it is directed to the person who says what he says for whatever reason he says those things. If you feel it is you then you must have a reason to feel that way and as you stated in an email a few months ago it was affecting your sleep. You may wish to do something about that so it does not affect your long term health. It would be very sad to hear some day that all of the stress you put yourself through defending SH took years off of your life. No amount of business is worth it.

As an Engineer I know that Insteon devices themselves are not Dual Mesh (knew it from day one when I opened the first box) but SH implies that they are so a consumer who believes the hype or even a technical person who does not read the white paper first is mislead into thinking the devices are dual mesh.

At least I see you are migrating to UPB in parts of your house after you claimed you were totally Insteon a year or so ago. If UPB meets your standards enough to replace Insteon it must be good enough for the average user. Maybe as you migrate further to UPB you will let go of the whole Insteon thing and feel better overall. Is Insteon really worth the stress to you? I would just sell/install UPB if I was you and have less headaches to deal with.

Take a walk and relax as you have the whole day ahead of you. Get some work done around the house etc or take the kids somewhere. SH will survive even if the original poster goes with UPB. Remember that most of SH business is to resell other companies products and not their own. The are really a mass distributor and not a manufacturer or an engineering company.

As far as there own agenda I was the first person to give the original poster the ok to go with Insteon before this thread even started. He went out and bought it on my advice and now he is having second thoughts. I am guilty of leading him to think that Insteon would be ok. SO MY AGENDA WAS TO SAY INSTEON WAS OK> NOT GREAT< OK. He may feel differently now and I feel bad if I caused him grief by saying Insteon was ok when in fact it is not as he is finding out from others. So I was pro Insteon until you started in.

I also have no financial gain if he goes with Insteon or UPB. I dont have an Insteon or UPB related product to sell in my footer nor do I sell either type of product (an occasional Insteon product now and then in a package but not much). You have several companies that sell Insteon related products by your own websites. You have every right to do that and more power to you. I hope you are doing well in fact. I just dont think its fair to say the things you say that could mislead people into a choice they will regret. I admit in this case I was guilty of promoting Insteon to him at first (I was not selling him Insteon) and I already apologzed to him for saying I would buy it if I was him. I never should have done that as UPB is clearly better for him by everyone elses advice but yours and mine.

 

[MikeB]

Well Mike it is directed to the person who says what he says for whatever reason he says those things. If you feel it is you then you must have a reason to feel that way and as you stated in an email a few months ago it was affecting your sleep. You may wish to do something about that so it does not affect your long term health. It would be very sad to hear some day that all of the stress you put yourself through defending SH took years off of your life. No amount of business is worth it.

LOL, are you serious right now?

As an Engineer I know that Insteon devices themselves are not Dual Mesh (knew it from day one when I opened the first box) but SH implies that they are so a consumer who believes the hype or even a technical person who does not read the white paper first is mislead into thinking the devices are dual mesh.

As far as I know (and I could be wrong), and from what I've seen, Smarthome advertises that the Insteon PROTOCOL is dual mesh. Different devices support different portions of the protocol. Clearly an RF remote doesn't broadcast commands DIRECTLY onto the powerline (though they are repeated there by the AccessPoint), clearly the Thermostat Adapter does not either. Current in-wall devices do not broadcast RF directly (though they are repeated there by the AccessPoint). Again, I can understand how a casual reader might assume that a wall switch was internally both powerline and RF, if they assume that the wall switch supported the entire Insteon protocol. Complain to Smarthome about it.

At least I see you are migrating to UPB in parts of your house after you claimed you were totally Insteon a year or so ago. If UPB meets your standards enough to replace Insteon it must be good enough for the average user. Maybe as you migrate further to UPB you will let go of the whole Insteon thing and feel better overall. Is Insteon really worth the stress to you? I would just sell/install UPB if I was you and have less headaches to deal with.

I have UPB installed for business reasons, not personal. I've been very happy, for the most part, with Insteon in my home. That being said, I like UPB and have never said otherwise. Your problem with me is that I'm not 100% against Smarthome. For some reason, that bothers you. I have no idea why.

Take a walk and relax as you have the whole day ahead of you. Get some work done around the house etc or take the kids somewhere. SH will survive even if the original poster goes with UPB. Remember that most of SH business is to resell other companies products and not their own. The are really a mass distributor and not a manufacturer or an engineering company.

Digger - I think you're the one all worked up here. The original poster asked for some pros and cons of Insteon and UPB. I gave him my personal opinion, and you didn't like it. Sorry.

I also have no financial gain if he goes with Insteon or UPB. I dont have an Insteon or UPB related product to sell in my footer nor do I sell either type of product (an occasional Insteon product now and then in a package but not much). You have several companies that sell Insteon related products by your own websites. You have every right to do that and more power to you. I hope you are doing well in fact. I just dont think its fair to say the things you say that could mislead people into a choice they will regret. I admit in this case I was guilty of promoting Insteon to him at first (I was not selling him Insteon) and I already apologzed to him for saying I would buy it if I was him. I never should have done that as UPB is clearly better for him by everyone elses advice but yours and mine.

I've explained this to you a bunch of times, but I'll try again. I don't personally care whether a user buys Insteon or UPB or ZWave. Our touch panel product supports the ISY automation controller. The ISY currently supports Inteon, but UPB and ZWave versions are in the works. To imply that I'm trying to sway a user to buy Insteon because MAYBE they will, and MAYBE they will buy an ISY, and then MAYBE they would have a need for and buy my product is obsurd - the chances of that are minute. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Insteon users do not own an ISY (though I think they should).

The fact of the matter is, I sell a product for the ISY because I LIKE the ISY. If I didn't like it, I wouldn't release a product for it. I use Insteon in my home because I LIKE the product. If I didn't like it, I would install something else.

What exactly have I said in this thread that has misled the original poster? Where exactly did I say that he should go with Insteon over UPB? I added my input to this thread because the poster was looking for some pros and cons of Insteon vs UPB. I have a lot of experience with Insteon, and a little experience with UPB, so I offered some opinions. Sorry you can't handle that.

I don't know why you get so worked up over this stuff.

 

[keepersg]

Insteon vs 'anything' (again (and again and again and again))

This thread has degenerated in the usual fashion. Having followed these 'discussions' out of (mainly psychological at this point) interest, they follow a pretty predictable pattern.

Anyhow, for the record, previously unhappy x10 user, now mostly happy insteon user with 30+ devices with powerhome and an isy that I'm playing with. A few device failures that SH replaced albeit in a fashion reminiscent of Laurel and Hardy but I came out in the black...

 

[MikeB]

This thread has degenerated in the usual fashion.

You're right, and I apologize for my contribution. I'll refrain from this point forward.

A few device failures that SH replaced albeit in a fashion reminiscent of Laurel and Hardy but I came out in the black...

Better than Abbot and Costello!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPrm6luPmME