Introducing the CastleHUB powered by CastleOS, now on Kickstarter!
- Thread starter ChrisCicc
- Start date
pvrfan
Active Member
ChrisCicc said:
http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,31716.msg229744.html#msg229744
So, exactly what we pointed out to you earlier, Chris.
Craig
ChrisCicc
Active Member
Oh look! The troll who said I owe someone an apology because I called that person a troll for repeatedly falsely claiming that what I said (and this video demonstrates) is impossible, and therefore I'm misleading my customers, is back! Still sticking to your guns, eh?
This is not the method we intend on using (though I do doubt Apple could actually sue over it and successfully win in court - users have a right to do with their devices as they please after they've been purchased and courts have made clear that applies to electronic devices too). I've known about both methods for months.
Frankly, it's not our job to spell out how to do things on public forums for our competitors to see. It's our job to deliver what we promise to our customers.
I simply point this here as a rebuttal, that while some users on this forum said it was impossible, calling me a liar and saying I don't understand HomeKit (and my investors should be concerned as a result, ha!), that it is indeed very, very, possible.
This does not mean I'm back on Cocoontech for Q&A - if you'd like to discuss CastleOS, we welcome you to join us on our forum.
P.S. I do appreciate the private messages of support I received after that debacle! It's clear the majority of the members of this community are not like the few that acted out here, and for that I'm thankful.
This is not the method we intend on using (though I do doubt Apple could actually sue over it and successfully win in court - users have a right to do with their devices as they please after they've been purchased and courts have made clear that applies to electronic devices too). I've known about both methods for months.
Frankly, it's not our job to spell out how to do things on public forums for our competitors to see. It's our job to deliver what we promise to our customers.
I simply point this here as a rebuttal, that while some users on this forum said it was impossible, calling me a liar and saying I don't understand HomeKit (and my investors should be concerned as a result, ha!), that it is indeed very, very, possible.
This does not mean I'm back on Cocoontech for Q&A - if you'd like to discuss CastleOS, we welcome you to join us on our forum.
P.S. I do appreciate the private messages of support I received after that debacle! It's clear the majority of the members of this community are not like the few that acted out here, and for that I'm thankful.
123
Senior Member
I'm certain you'll disagree with me but I feel the video is a weak rebuttal.
The video (and there are others) demonstrates using Siri to control non-Homekit devices. Before HomeKit arrived, SiriProxy had accomplished the same thing (until Apple released iOS7). What's important is that it does not demonstrate controlling Apple-blessed Homekit-enabled devices ("Homekit Accessories"). When that's demonstrated, then it will serve as a strong rebuttal.
I feel a claim of "supporting Homekit" should include controlling Homekit-enabled devices. The supplied video does not demonstrate this capability. I assume your claim that CastleOS will support Homekit will include the ability to control Homekit-enabled devices. Otherwise, it'll be a partial implementation that is certain to disappoint customers who will be unable to control their Homekit Accessories.
The development and demonstration of a bridge is unremarkable. The Homekit protocol is documented. Case in point, it's unlikely the engineers at Insteon had to reverse-engineer anything to design the upcoming Insteon Hub Pro (an approved 'hardware bridge'). Unlike HomeBridge, Insteon's press release indicates it will work with "all Homekit-enabled devices".
HomeBridge uses so-called "shims" to communicate with non-Homekit devices and it'll be interesting to see how that will work with the crypto in actual Homekit-enabled devices.
A tricky bit of business is Apple's current stance that they will not support "software bridges" only "hardware bridges" (like the Insteon Hub Pro). The folks at Indigo Domotics spelled this out to their customers a few months ago. They currently cannot provide Homekit bridging because Indigo is HA software running on a Mac and would constitute a software bridge. Perhaps Apple will lift this restriction in the future (or it already has and is only known to folks who signed an NDA).
Chris, I've followed your suggestion and read many of the posts on the CastleOS forum. The following complaints speak to the charge that CastleOS's marketing may be misleading.
From the "Wonderful ... But" thread.
"... the system just doesn't work at the level promised, ..."
"... I think that CastleOS is overselling itself."
"I have been using castle os for some time now and I have to say I am generally dissapointed with the system."
Naturally there will always be customers who experience problems during the learning and implementation phases. Nevertheless, the common sentiment appears to be "overselling" and supports the position, expressed in this thread, that perhaps some of CastleOS's marketing claims may go beyond the product's actual capabilities.
I politely ask again, is there any documentation available, like a comparison chart, to support the claim that "CastleOS integrates support for more smart devices and protocols than any other home automation system."? I assume some sort of comparative analysis was performed in order to arrive at this conclusion. There are several broad categories of devices your competitors support (alarm panels, AV equipment, irrigation systems, etc) that I don't see listed for CastleOS.
The video (and there are others) demonstrates using Siri to control non-Homekit devices. Before HomeKit arrived, SiriProxy had accomplished the same thing (until Apple released iOS7). What's important is that it does not demonstrate controlling Apple-blessed Homekit-enabled devices ("Homekit Accessories"). When that's demonstrated, then it will serve as a strong rebuttal.
I feel a claim of "supporting Homekit" should include controlling Homekit-enabled devices. The supplied video does not demonstrate this capability. I assume your claim that CastleOS will support Homekit will include the ability to control Homekit-enabled devices. Otherwise, it'll be a partial implementation that is certain to disappoint customers who will be unable to control their Homekit Accessories.
The development and demonstration of a bridge is unremarkable. The Homekit protocol is documented. Case in point, it's unlikely the engineers at Insteon had to reverse-engineer anything to design the upcoming Insteon Hub Pro (an approved 'hardware bridge'). Unlike HomeBridge, Insteon's press release indicates it will work with "all Homekit-enabled devices".
HomeBridge uses so-called "shims" to communicate with non-Homekit devices and it'll be interesting to see how that will work with the crypto in actual Homekit-enabled devices.
A tricky bit of business is Apple's current stance that they will not support "software bridges" only "hardware bridges" (like the Insteon Hub Pro). The folks at Indigo Domotics spelled this out to their customers a few months ago. They currently cannot provide Homekit bridging because Indigo is HA software running on a Mac and would constitute a software bridge. Perhaps Apple will lift this restriction in the future (or it already has and is only known to folks who signed an NDA).
Chris, I've followed your suggestion and read many of the posts on the CastleOS forum. The following complaints speak to the charge that CastleOS's marketing may be misleading.
From the "Wonderful ... But" thread.
"... the system just doesn't work at the level promised, ..."
"... I think that CastleOS is overselling itself."
"I have been using castle os for some time now and I have to say I am generally dissapointed with the system."
Naturally there will always be customers who experience problems during the learning and implementation phases. Nevertheless, the common sentiment appears to be "overselling" and supports the position, expressed in this thread, that perhaps some of CastleOS's marketing claims may go beyond the product's actual capabilities.
I politely ask again, is there any documentation available, like a comparison chart, to support the claim that "CastleOS integrates support for more smart devices and protocols than any other home automation system."? I assume some sort of comparative analysis was performed in order to arrive at this conclusion. There are several broad categories of devices your competitors support (alarm panels, AV equipment, irrigation systems, etc) that I don't see listed for CastleOS.
ChrisCicc
Active Member
I really wish you guys would ask questions instead of continuing to assume you know best. This is why I don't want to participate in this community any more.
That video is not at all akin to SiriProxy. That video is demonstrating Siri controlling HomeKit devices - virtual HomeKit devices exposed via a third party app connected to the Vera.
There are three types of users who will want to mix HomeKit with non-HomeKit gear:
Regarding the comments about CastleOS, yes, of course some users will have bad experiences. You managed to quote the most vocal of all, but missed this part: "For newbies.... 0 out of 10". His problem isn't learning and using CastleOS, his problem is he's brand new to home automation in general.
I'd be the first to admit starting with CastleOS may not be the best place for a non-techy non-DIY person due to it's current lack of video walkthroughs. That's changing though with the CastleHUB launch, hopefully he'll get what he needs in the videos to be able to properly configure his system for his needs. We're also adding help documentation directly into the app itself, so that on each screen you can simply press the help button to explain what's what.
Regarding smart devices - I'll only reply here to reiterate what I've said to Dean in another thread - a home theater receiver is not a smart device. In terms of pure automation (smart) devices, CastleOS ships with integrated support for the most devices.
That video is not at all akin to SiriProxy. That video is demonstrating Siri controlling HomeKit devices - virtual HomeKit devices exposed via a third party app connected to the Vera.
There are three types of users who will want to mix HomeKit with non-HomeKit gear:
- Users who simply want to use Siri to control their gear with HomeKit voice commands without buying HomeKit devices (most users, and demonstrated in this video)
- Users who want a unified app for their existing system and their HomeKit "accessories"
- Users who want existing non-HomeKit devices to talk to HomeKit devices (why are they buying HomeKit?)
Regarding the comments about CastleOS, yes, of course some users will have bad experiences. You managed to quote the most vocal of all, but missed this part: "For newbies.... 0 out of 10". His problem isn't learning and using CastleOS, his problem is he's brand new to home automation in general.
I'd be the first to admit starting with CastleOS may not be the best place for a non-techy non-DIY person due to it's current lack of video walkthroughs. That's changing though with the CastleHUB launch, hopefully he'll get what he needs in the videos to be able to properly configure his system for his needs. We're also adding help documentation directly into the app itself, so that on each screen you can simply press the help button to explain what's what.
Regarding smart devices - I'll only reply here to reiterate what I've said to Dean in another thread - a home theater receiver is not a smart device. In terms of pure automation (smart) devices, CastleOS ships with integrated support for the most devices.
Chris,
As a potential customer I figure I will offer you some input here. Unless I am missing something here cocoontech seems to be the only if not best site for DIY home types when it comes to automation. I am not sure who your target market is but I would have to assume that the DIY community is a large portion of it but even if it isn't, it is a portion that should be treated equally. I am yet to select how to further automate my home and have watched Castle OS for a long time purely due to the voice control, which it seems like you are not the only option for, regardless of technology or reliability there are options. From an outside perspective of a potential customer new to cocoontech but whom has seen your presence on other forums your representation of yourself as a person and a business is anything but professional or reliable. Your product seems to have potential but you seem to make it sound like things are right around the corner when they are not, maybe you should hold off on announcements until they are ready? it makes one question the long term stability of your company. Your behavior here in this thread is very unprofessional, you could have easily responded to any of your "perceived" or otherwise attacks in a professional, non confrontational manner backed up by fact and or friendly debate/explanation but instead you come across as very defensive and childish.
Again I am freely giving you this feedback of my own opinion as a potential customer who on the fence about your product is quite turned off by your representation here to the point of losing interest no matter the quality or capability of the product.
For what it is worth.
As a potential customer I figure I will offer you some input here. Unless I am missing something here cocoontech seems to be the only if not best site for DIY home types when it comes to automation. I am not sure who your target market is but I would have to assume that the DIY community is a large portion of it but even if it isn't, it is a portion that should be treated equally. I am yet to select how to further automate my home and have watched Castle OS for a long time purely due to the voice control, which it seems like you are not the only option for, regardless of technology or reliability there are options. From an outside perspective of a potential customer new to cocoontech but whom has seen your presence on other forums your representation of yourself as a person and a business is anything but professional or reliable. Your product seems to have potential but you seem to make it sound like things are right around the corner when they are not, maybe you should hold off on announcements until they are ready? it makes one question the long term stability of your company. Your behavior here in this thread is very unprofessional, you could have easily responded to any of your "perceived" or otherwise attacks in a professional, non confrontational manner backed up by fact and or friendly debate/explanation but instead you come across as very defensive and childish.
Again I am freely giving you this feedback of my own opinion as a potential customer who on the fence about your product is quite turned off by your representation here to the point of losing interest no matter the quality or capability of the product.
For what it is worth.
ChrisCicc
Active Member
Hey Cheezit, I appreciate your thoughts and that you posted them. I feel this is a good time to clear something up about what I am no longer going to represent CastleOS here. It's not a defensive or childish reaction, it's a strategic one. You'll notice there are no brand reps from Wink, SmartThings, Indigo, Control4, etc. here. There is a good reason for that. As a long time DIY home automation consumer, I participated in this community and attempted to continue to do so as a vendor.
The issue is that when a vendor participates in a forum like this, they lose control of the environment. AZ is not a customer of CastleOS. He is not interested in becoming a customer of CastleOS. He was only interested in continuing to troll me until I either gave in or gave up. Although my messages are now deleted, I very calmly answered his questions. However he was not willing to accept those answers, and things went awry when he accused CastleOS and I of misleading our customers. He acted like a troll, and I called him such. I do not subscribe to the theory that because I'm now on the other side of the table I can't call trolls a troll. This is still the internet and people are still hiding behind their usernames and keyboards - and some people on this forum used that to attack the integrity of CastleOS.
Unfortunately, due to the lack of moderation (the moderators have day jobs and don't actually pay close attention - I have messages that go unread for months), a non-customer who's only interested in making noise can hijack a Q&A thread intended for actual customers. Now if me pulling out is seen as childish by you, that's unfortunate but there is no other way. Despite having mod control at the CastleOS forum, I've never had to delete a post or ban a user. Even when we miss a delivery date, no one accuses me of being a liar.
Which brings me to your questions about dates.. the biggest complaint has been the delay of the CastleHUB. Originally announced in the fall, it didn't launch until a month ago. It's now launched and we've been delivering software updates regularly throughout. Tonight the update featuring support for TCP Connected devices is launching. In comparison, Wink just added sunrise/sunset support to their system. We've had that for almost two years. Despite missing a deadline or two along the way, we do have a very capable product.
I do ask that you continue the conversation over at CastleOS' forums if you are interested (and I hope you are!).
Thanks!
-Chris
(Edited for grammar)
The issue is that when a vendor participates in a forum like this, they lose control of the environment. AZ is not a customer of CastleOS. He is not interested in becoming a customer of CastleOS. He was only interested in continuing to troll me until I either gave in or gave up. Although my messages are now deleted, I very calmly answered his questions. However he was not willing to accept those answers, and things went awry when he accused CastleOS and I of misleading our customers. He acted like a troll, and I called him such. I do not subscribe to the theory that because I'm now on the other side of the table I can't call trolls a troll. This is still the internet and people are still hiding behind their usernames and keyboards - and some people on this forum used that to attack the integrity of CastleOS.
Unfortunately, due to the lack of moderation (the moderators have day jobs and don't actually pay close attention - I have messages that go unread for months), a non-customer who's only interested in making noise can hijack a Q&A thread intended for actual customers. Now if me pulling out is seen as childish by you, that's unfortunate but there is no other way. Despite having mod control at the CastleOS forum, I've never had to delete a post or ban a user. Even when we miss a delivery date, no one accuses me of being a liar.
Which brings me to your questions about dates.. the biggest complaint has been the delay of the CastleHUB. Originally announced in the fall, it didn't launch until a month ago. It's now launched and we've been delivering software updates regularly throughout. Tonight the update featuring support for TCP Connected devices is launching. In comparison, Wink just added sunrise/sunset support to their system. We've had that for almost two years. Despite missing a deadline or two along the way, we do have a very capable product.
I do ask that you continue the conversation over at CastleOS' forums if you are interested (and I hope you are!).
Thanks!
-Chris
(Edited for grammar)
123
Senior Member
ChrisCicc said:
In the video, Al Beebe describes the wall-switch to be a "GE Jasco switch". In other words, it's a garden-variety z-wave switch and is not a "Homekit device". You proceeded to qualify "Homekit device" using the invented term "virtual Homekit device" which is specious at best. If I speak Romanian to you via an interpreter, who translates into English for your comprehension, that does not make you a "virtual Romanian". You can't claim you are "Romanian - a virtual Romanian."
I fear your qualified term "smart device" is yet another fabrication whose definition is uniquely your own. Your competition supports whole categories of devices that have been traditionally incorporated in "smart homes" (a real term) that CastleOS currently does not. Claiming something is "not a smart device" doesn't change the fact it has been an integral part of automated homes for more years than CastleOS has existed. Whatever peculiar meaning you have attached to the word "smart" seems solely for the purpose of making the dubious claim that your product supports more "smart devices and protocols" than anyone else.
Others have expressed the opinion that your abrasive responses have harmed your credibility. I believe you discredited yourself by failing to be frank with a community of long-standing HA enthusiasts and professionals. Many of us have had long careers in engineering, IT, and management. We can easily detect claims and replies that play fast and loose with the facts. For example, this exchange (you had deleted) summarizes a fundamental inability to be forthright:
LabPaddy's question: "Is CastleOS an operating system?"
Your answer: "Yes, it is an operating system for the home."
FreeDictionary could use that as an example for the definition of disingenuous.
Based on your experience here, you've discounted Cocoontech for being an insufficiently moderated forum where vendors lose control to non-customers whose agenda is to troll. One only needs to glance at "What is wrong with CQC?" to discover your experience is an anomaly. Dean Roddey has explicitly asked the Cocoontech community to point out CQC's flaws and the conversation (currently at 286 posts) has remained fair and civil despite some 'tough love' meted out by both customers and non-customers. Dean has not agreed with all comments yet his replies have remained forthright and honest. His credibility, always one of his strong suits, has only been enhanced by this exercise.
"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings."
nicholass817
Member
Just have to say...it still burns me that this thing is called a hub and the application is called an os. Seems disingenuous to the core.
Think I'm going to develop the bicyleROCKET that is power by the latest version of bicycleMOTOR and say I designed the whole thing from scratch. And if you press me with questions about it you will discover it doesn't fly nor does it have a motor...it's really just off-the-shelf bike parts with altered gearing of my design, but I'll never admit it...especially with Apple working on BikeKit...
Sorry if this offends. I'll remove the post if there is any backlash...
Think I'm going to develop the bicyleROCKET that is power by the latest version of bicycleMOTOR and say I designed the whole thing from scratch. And if you press me with questions about it you will discover it doesn't fly nor does it have a motor...it's really just off-the-shelf bike parts with altered gearing of my design, but I'll never admit it...especially with Apple working on BikeKit...
Sorry if this offends. I'll remove the post if there is any backlash...
If anyone would like to play with HomeKit and Siri, the following link is how the guy in the video got it working:
https://github.com/nfarina/homebridge
more information here:
http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,31716.msg229688.html
well, i didn't see these same links posted above. carry on ...
https://github.com/nfarina/homebridge
more information here:
http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,31716.msg229688.html
well, i didn't see these same links posted above. carry on ...
pvrfan
Active Member
ChrisCicc said:
I'm looking forward to you releasing a product that circumvents Apple's security. Should that actually occur, Apple's lawyers will slam you so hard you'll resemble the Road Runner in those cartoons. A video of a hack using the XCode simulator does not equal a shipping product.
Craig
wkearney99
Senior Member
pvrfan said:
This does not come across as a very intelligent way to have a discussion. I never fail to be disgusted with the smug way some folks rally behind how a vendor will 'bully' people around. Just who do they think is being helped by supporting that kind of arrogance?
pete_c
Guru
Geez yesterday 24 of April, 2015 Android pissed on Apple in Rawalpindi, Pakistan.
Well too no one looks at that part of the world from the Midwest; well except for today 25th of April, 2015 in Nepal (and Mt. Everest, India, Tibet and the Nepal-China border)...
RESCUERS HUNT for survivors after a deadly earthquake hits Nepal, killing at least 1,394 people across a swath of four countries, destroying houses and centuries-old temples in the worst temblor to hit the poor South Asian nation in over 80 years.
Well too no one looks at that part of the world from the Midwest; well except for today 25th of April, 2015 in Nepal (and Mt. Everest, India, Tibet and the Nepal-China border)...
RESCUERS HUNT for survivors after a deadly earthquake hits Nepal, killing at least 1,394 people across a swath of four countries, destroying houses and centuries-old temples in the worst temblor to hit the poor South Asian nation in over 80 years.
pvrfan
Active Member
wkearney99 said:
Go check again what Chris wrote. He posted a video of someone using a HomeKit simulator as if it proved that there was an open, supported way to control HomeKit accessories. Then he said that he doubted that Apple could defend its intellectual property in court.
Apple has proprietary encryption technology embedded in the chips that all HomeKit devices must use. They licence that IP via the Made for iOS program. By this point, Chris would have said if Castle had been accepted into MFI.
If Castle (Chris) tries to bring out a product that cracks or circumvents that encryption, do you think Apple should ignore it?
Should Castle (Chris) be encouraged to violate the intellectual property rights of other technology companies? Or is Apple a special exception?
My observation is that Apple has always aggressively defended their proprietary IP and HomeKit will be no exception. I'm not a big supporter of our dear Chris (surprise!). If he wants to take on their legal team, I don't think I'll have time to make popcorn before the bout is over.
Craig
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