Leviton says max 30-35 devices for reliable ViziaRF Z-Wave network.

[johnnynine]

I guess this thread is sufficiently hijacked...

Hi guys, so this is what it feels like to be hijacked... I post a Leviton ViziaRF story and I get flooded with a competitor's product and X10 posts. I say that in jest as it s good information I must admit.

I have an update. I received ControlThink ThinkEssentials 2.1 Professional Edition today.

1. I installed it, plugged in the usb stick when asked, it recognized it fine and all seemed to be good.
2. I clicked the Settings tab and selected something to the affect of adding the stick to my zwave network.
3. I let it timeout since I didn't quite have the remote yet.
4. The software said it timed out... then POOF. CRASH.
5. Now everytime I run ThinkEssentials it crashes on me immediately after showing the main window.

I chose to debug that app and I can see the error info:

"Invoke or BeginInvoke cannot be called on a control until the window handle has been created."

   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WaitForWaitHandle(WaitHandle waitHandle)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.MarshaledInvoke(Control caller, Delegate method, Object[] args, Boolean synchronous)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.Invoke(Delegate method, Object[] args)
   at ControlThink.Forms.NetworkChooser.j.b()
   at System.Threading.ThreadHelper.ThreadStart_Context(Object state)
   at System.Threading.ExecutionContext.Run(ExecutionContext executionContext, ContextCallback callback, Object state)
   at System.Threading.ThreadHelper.ThreadStart()

Tech talk: It looks like they have a Windows Form called NetworkChooser.j and it is calling the Invoke() method on a control before the window has a handle... probably in the constructor instead of in Load method. This may have been done on another thread and Invoke was called to prevent a cross-threading issue.

This whole Z-Wave thing is getting a little darker.

Johnny

 

[johnnynine]

I figured out a workaround. If I unplug the usb stick, then start the software it asked me to insert the stick again... doing so allows the app to run. So the key is to not start version 2.1 with the stick plugged into the pc.

This allowed me to get to the Check for Software Updates link and I see version 2.4 is available. Let's hope that solves that issue.

Johnny

 

[johnnynine]

Version 2.4 fixed the crash issue... however it took me a minute to figure out where it was.

Version 2.1 is installed in a start menu group called "ThinkEssentials". When you install verison 2.4 it does not upgrade, it installs in a new unusual path and creates a new start menu group called "ControlThink".

I was able to set the ControlStick as the primary remote and I am not running the Optimize and Repair tool.

 

[Tink]

Another HUGE (in my mind) benefit of insteon is that it plays well with X-10. It is an easy transition. You do not have to rip X-10 out to convert to insteon. In fact, I still use some X-10 devices.

True, although we also made that possible in HomeSeer. It does not play directly like Insteon does, but HomeSeer allows you to transition over time, keep both as long as you want - took me a good many years before I finally replaced the last of my X-10 switches - going to put a TON of them up on eBay soon...

One of my kids likes to turn on every light from point A to point B, and then when he is done he leaves half of them on. With two-way technology, I can in places control this. When somebody turns on the light over the stairway, I have HomeSeer wait 30 seconds or so, then it dims the light down to 30% as a warning that they are about to be turned off, and then 10 seconds later they are turned off.

In all fairness, I think I could do that with X-10 as well.

Yes, there are two-way X-10 devices, but as I mentioned I did not want to consider doing it with X-10 because of the inherent unreliability. Additionally, in the time it takes to send an X-10 signal to request the status of a device, and for the X-10 response to come back, I can send and receive the same in Z-Wave 16-2/3 times. Thus, I can query devices in Z-Wave often enough to approximate realtime if I wanted.

 

[claymahaffey]

Theere

Version 2.4 fixed the crash issue... however it took me a minute to figure out where it was.

Version 2.1 is installed in a start menu group called "ThinkEssentials". When you install verison 2.4 it does not upgrade, it installs in a new unusual path and creates a new start menu group called "ControlThink".

I was able to set the ControlStick as the primary remote and I am not running the Optimize and Repair tool.

ControlThink was purchased by Leviton, so maybe that explains the switch to the new start-menu location. Their forums are pretty useful and do list bugs with the software. I've just ordered the new ThinkStick, as the original HA22 stick I got with the software by in 2008 no longer works with the advanced features of Leviton's zwave system. I'll let you know if I have any luck when I (finally) get it.

Hi guys, so this is what it feels like to be hijacked... I post a Leviton ViziaRF story and I get flooded with a competitor's product and X10 posts. I say that in jest as it s good information I must admit.

I guess we didn't know if you were posting as the owner of J9 or just a frustrated home automation geek like the rest of us!

 

[Tink]

Hi guys, so this is what it feels like to be hijacked... I post a Leviton ViziaRF story and I get flooded with a competitor's product and X10 posts. I say that in jest as it s good information I must admit.

Well, the original post did not make it clear what you wanted, if anything - it was more a statement of your thoughts on Leviton Z-Wave (a "story" as you put it), which is pretty much an open invitation to comment. I was trying to share what (little) I knew about WHY your Leviton experience might be less than stellar, and also to let you know that your investment in the hardware is not for naught because other products that work with Z-Wave (Yeah, you know what I am thinking) may eliminate the problems you are experiencing. All of the X-10 stuff is just adjunct that sucked me in since I am guilty of sometimes having diarrhea of the typing fingers.

 

[aslamma]

Hi guys, so this is what it feels like to be hijacked... I post a Leviton ViziaRF story and I get flooded with a competitor's product and X10 posts. I say that in jest as it s good information I must admit.

Well, the original post did not make it clear what you wanted, if anything - it was more a statement of your thoughts on Leviton Z-Wave (a "story" as you put it), which is pretty much an open invitation to comment. I was trying to share what (little) I knew about WHY your Leviton experience might be less than stellar, and also to let you know that your investment in the hardware is not for naught because other products that work with Z-Wave (Yeah, you know what I am thinking) may eliminate the problems you are experiencing. All of the X-10 stuff is just adjunct that sucked me in since I am guilty of sometimes having diarrhea of the typing fingers.

I agree with this. And although HS is a competitor, tink was also helping to share info, which can only help everyone. Otherwise I suspect the thread would not go very far. I could be wrong, but I am guessing that the solutions to this is way over most of our heads.

The problems are at a high level and most users can't offer much other than the comparison to x-10. Btw, I use x-10 still since it simply works in my case. Sorry for my highjack, but it is important to recognize why people still want support for it (which both J9 and HS offer

 

[johnnynine]

I'm just having fun guys, per oberkc's "hijacked" comment. As I mentioned...

I say that in jest as its good information I must admit.

 

[Sandpiper]

I'm just having fun guys, per oberkc's "hijacked" comment. As I mentioned...

I say that in jest as its good information I must admit.

I also am guilty for the hi-jack, as I was the first to mention X-10. But most of my intention with this initial mention, is that I do plan to "upgrade" some day. I just want the z-wave manufacturers to get their stuff together. There appears to be a lot of buyers like me waiting for the quality issues to be resolved. I am hoping that the manufacturers read this and understand this.

 

[Tink]

I also am guilty for the hi-jack, as I was the first to mention X-10. But most of my intention with this initial mention, is that I do plan to "upgrade" some day. I just want the z-wave manufacturers to get their stuff together. There appears to be a lot of buyers like me waiting for the quality issues to be resolved. I am hoping that the manufacturers read this and understand this.

Actually, I don't think there have been any quality issues in years that have gone to production. The issues today are all software/firmware related, and the continued use of the old stuff which has old versions of the Z-Wave library, some of which have problems. Even though a manufacturer may not make it possible to open up a switch to have its firmware updated, the heart of the device can be updated. This is an advantage that Cooper-Wiring products have - the firmware CAN be updated without scrapping the device, so when issues were found with their software, they would update all of the product in their inventory to take care of it.

I think the kind of hardware failures like I used to see with the original Z-Wave devices 6-7 years ago are gone. So, not sure what quality issues you still see today - would like to know, in case it is something that can be addressed in software.

And if you know where X-10 originated, or know the back story of some former X-10 employees (and which HA companies they work for now), own some original BSR brown X-10 modules, or have sat through an "Uncle Phil" X-10 presentation complete with his oscilloscope, then you can talk X-10 any time you want because you are/were hard-core X-10!

 

[TurboSam]

Hijacked or not, this was/is a great thread for those of us trying to get our heads wrapped around the pros and cons (and the technology issues behind the pros and cons) of Z-wave, X-10, and to a lesser extend, Insteon.

 

[ddennerline]

I purchased ControlThink Professional instead of VRCPG. I am using ControlThink 2.5 beta sotware. ControlThink Professional can work with VRCPG by taking over “Primary Remote†responsibility and synchronizing node information. I have found the tool invaluable for setting my Z-Wave Network. The ControlThink software supports configuring all the Leviton Zone/Scene wall controllers.

Currently, I have only 9 Leviton Vizia RF+ switches. I just purchased a four button zone controller, so I cannot speak to reliabilty when multiple controllers are present. I have grown to really love the rocker action. My only complaint is that I wish the LED status light was not located at the bottom.

I have followed the process below a couple times using CTPro running on laptop. At some point in future, I was planning on procuring netbook as running around house with larger-than-normal laptop is no fun - especially due to short battery life.

1. Start at farthest end of house
2. Include first light and renamed the light
3. Move to next closest light
4. Enroll (included) all lights by moving in orderly fashion. This way it easier to group lights.
5. Include the VRC0P last. I think you would also include any wall controllers at this point.
6. Move back to first room and used Tools->Setting->Optimize Network
7. Move to next major room and repeated process
8. CT will indicate that all controllers must be updated. I wait until the network appears to be optimized according to directions in ControlThink Users Guide Section 4.
9. Move the laptop to VRC0P location and press the F8 button to see how many hops away each light is.
10. Walk to each major room in the house and use the, “View Signal Strength,†function.
11. Right now I have a few lights located in metal boxes, so the range is reduced. I was able to get around this problem by using a lamp module (VRP03) as an access point. Because the VRP03 is not hidden in the wall, I have a strong believe that reception is improved.
12. Move the laptop adjacent to VRC0P and use the “Update Controller†option
13. Repeat steps 9-12 until network appears to be working as expected. This step may require including a light again if the signal strength is not meeting expectations. I have had cases where VRC0P does not reliably switch a light on/off. As mentioned in previous post, “including†light again updates it routing table.
14. Disconnect the RS-232 VRC0P from Elk M1XSP and connect to laptop’s serial port
15. Execute LumenLink program to create groups (inside lights, outside lights, eating lights, etc..) and build ElkRP light export file
16. I then use a USB thumbdrive to copy the lighting export file back to computer that is has ElkRP software.

In the picture below, the computer is upstairs and nearest light is 50ft away; there are no Vizia+ lights upstairs yet. I can control most of the lights, but the ones farthest away do not reliably report bi-directional status. Ideally, the controller managing the lights should be 1-2 hops away. This picture changes drastically when laptop is downstair in the middle of house.



I hope that Leviton continues to invest more resources into ControlThink Professional. I would like to see a Wireshark/Z-Wave Sniffer support similiar to, "Wireless Network Optimization with Wireshark." I would also be nice if ControlThink could manage the VRC0P's groups and scenes. I should be able to add/delete to VRC0P using only one software package.

 

[johnnynine]

Thanks for the details.

Unfortunately the ThinkEssentials software does not work on my laptop (or more precisely Samsung Q1). When I plug the ControlStick in the software says "Receiving Configuration..." but never finishes. B)

So I don't have a way to make it portable. So I did the following and it did NOT improve anything:

1. I bought ThinkEssentials at the recommenation of a vendor.
2. I installed ThinkEssentials on my PC (since it doesn't work on my Samsung Q1)
3. I included the ControlStick into my existing z-wave network.
4. I made the ControlStick the primary controller from the VRCPG handheld controller.
5. I ran the repair and optimize feature.
6. I updated the VRCPG handheld controller (I forget the exact step I did to get that to work).
7. I made the VRCPG the primary controller.
8. I updated all my other controllers using the VRCPG handheld controller.

The only noticeable thing that this did is erase all my areas. All the associations seem fine but all the area names and area devices are gone.

I'm not sure if the steps I took were correct, but the gist of it is that I don't have a way to walk around the house and update all the controllers with the ControlStick so I was hoping I could just update the VRCPG then make it primary and use it to update the rest of the controllers. Does anyone know if that should work?

So in the end this has actually made things slightly worse... I just need to recreate all my areas and I'll be back where I started.

Johnny

 

[ddennerline]

In order to optimize the network, I have found that mobility is key. Section 4 (General Diagnostic Interpretation) of manual provides some guidance on best practices.
The Partner Device Hop Count (F8), Source Route Hop Count (Shift F8), and View Signal Strength (Right Mouse) functions are critical indicators of layout and reliability.

I tried for fun to optimize network from upstairs computer where nearest light is 40ft away; I have no switches upstairs yet. This turned out to cause the VRC0P reliability problems. When I hooked up ThinkStickPro back to laptop and went downstairs, I noticed that signal strength and hop counts were different as related to VRC0P's perspective. My gut instinct from experimentation is that optimizing the network from the controller’s perspective is probably a good practice. I could be mistaken since I only have one controller right now. You may have to re-include problem switches multiple times in order to get routing table right. This sort of jive with previous poster was saying about not playing around with Z-Wave network once its operating correctly.

I am very interested to see if you can fix your problems because I have relatively small number of switches. Before I invest another $500, I want to make sure unexpected/undocumented problems are minimal.

You may want to try the 2.5beta to see if problem goes away. I am using ControlThinkPro on a WindowsXP and Windows7 64-bit machine.

I do not have a VRCPG, so I cannot comment in the bi-directional synchronization. I decided to forgo $150 cost because I don't have a need for yet another remote.

 

[etc6849]

I'm sure you've thought of this already, but two ideas come to mind:

Idea #1: Are all your nodes made by Leviton ? I ask because I had purchased some home essentials zwave stuff and added it to my network. Once adding the home essential nodes the two way feedback for the leviton devices slowed from <1 second to 7-12 seconds! I ended up returning the home essential kit and the feedback from my wall switches was fast again. However, I later added a zwave thermostat (Wayne Dalton) and the feedback slowed again to 3-4 seconds. It seems strange, but I have also read of a few stories on zwaveworld where adding non leviton products slowed things down.

Idea #2: Is it possible for you to use two or three RS232 controllers placed in two to three centralized locations? I'm assuming you are using the VRC0P? EDIT: to clarify, I'm talking about adding two or three seperate zwave networks and controlling them centrally with your handy home automation software. Not to thread crap, but I use Motorola Premise (http://www.cocoontech.com/wiki/Premise) and another user (aka 123) was kind enough to build a very nice driver for it.

My thought is that I would recommend putting all the non-leviton stuff on its own network and using a lantronix wibox or something like it to serve the rs232 controller over a wireless network. This is my personal plan when I add more zwave devices. I haven't tried the two network thing though. It should work according to the forum at zwaveworld as I posted that question a few months back.

It's not a big deal as I only rely on feedback from the switches for setting this like auto off timers and triggering room occupancy. With the statements from Leviton engineering in the first post, I'm wondering if the newer VRC0P rs232 controller (formerly RZC0P) will work better for me? I'm using an old RZC0P from ebay with 8 devices (don't laugh <_< ). At any rate, thanks for posting this information!