Looking for clarification

[GimpMaster]

I find sometimes the best way to ask a question is to explain what I know and have people correct me with what I'm wrong.
 
I'm looking to install into my new home (under construction) a Home Automation / Security system. I'm leaning towards the Elk M1 Gold and from forum posts people have recommended buying from AO (Automated Outlet). I would then connect the Elk M1G to my dedicated Server running CQC software via the Lan port. My server is a Linux based server so I'm thinking of running CQC on a Windows VM such as Virtualbox (anyone doing this?).
 
The Elk M1G would not only be my security controller but also my lighting controller using either Z-Wave or UPB or a combination of sorts and HVAC and maybe garage door.
 
The CQC software will also tie into my home theater system serving up my media library to the projector and AV receiver (how does it send IR codes to the receiver? via Elk?).
 
I just ordered from Monoprice my CAT6 and speaker wire. Soon I will be ordering my Elk M1G and a whole bunch of 22/4 solid core wire. I'm looking at this system specifically (http://www.automatedoutlet.com/Home/Elk-Security-Automation/ELK-M1GSYS4)
 
Thanks in advance for comments.
 
Josh

 

[tmbrown97]

Well, I'll bite...  Honestly you haven't described anything out of whack - the Elk M1G is a great platform, and AO is a great vendor (we don't know where you live so it's hard to say if anyone else is closer).  Running a Windows VM should be fine - it just means you'll want to make sure all communication is via network; if you end up needing more serial ports for any reason, you'd want to look at a serial-over-IP solution since USB isn't a good option with VM's.
 
IR control would be separate from the elk and via CQC - probably via a GlobalCache or something else - I'm not into that side of things enough to know the main products but this isn't something that the Elk will drive.
 
There are a lot of Elk packages - I find the 14" can that's standard to be pretty small but I repurposed it as a sub-panel in my garage for sprinkler/strobe/garage door control and used a larger one for the M1G; also keypad choice is relevant - the KP1 is the ugliest IMO, but the most fully featured (more Function keys and built-in thermostat); whereas the KP2 is the best looking IMO - available for recessed mount with an SP12 speaker mounted behind it, so all your system sounds come from points of interaction - makes it seem very cohesive.  They have all sorts of packages to get whatever combination you need, or you can roll your own.  If you go through AO, it couldn't hurt to make a phone call with your whole package to see what they can do.
 
It's a fun journey - good luck!!  There are lots of threads about what to wire for so be sure to read up and ask questions!

 

[Neurorad]

Personally, I wouldn't buy the hardware until I'm ready to install it, but I don't foresee any changes to the Elk platform in the next year.
 
If you currently have space and the time, you could set the alarm up on a workbench and play with it.
 
You will need other Elk components for your installation (prob more than 1 KP, piezo, DBH, IP232, motion sensors, smoke detectors, maybe CO detectors, speakers, water sensors, garage door contacts; hopefully the distributor will help piece the system together for you.  Let us (me) know what distributor and salesman you end up using - I'm in the market myself.  

 

[GimpMaster]

Perfect, that is exactly the responses I was looking for. So I'm not too far off base.
 
I would like to order the HA systems now just so I can play with them on a bench. Even mock up the light switches.
 
Question: Will I have everything I need to run the home lighting system with the ELK M1G or will I need other devices. I noticed in your profile you also have the RUC-01.
 
I live in Utah so I'm not sure what other distributors might be closer but I'll give AO a phone call today to see if they can help me piece together a system.
 
Thanks

 

[potts.mike]

Look for a receiver that CQC can control with serial or IP.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Even if it's not on the list, a driver can generally be done for a reasonable price to provide the basic day to day control stuff required. Just be careful to distinguish between one that has a control protocol and one that doesn't suck. Lots of things can be controlled but they have crap protocols for various reasons. So ask if you aren't sure first. The Denons and Yamahas and Marantz's are generally reasonable bets. They have well known protocols and are reliably controllable without quirks these days.

 

[GimpMaster]

Good to hear Yamahas are pretty good. I'm looking at the Yamaha RX-A820 7.2 Channel (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=82-115-393&ParentOnly=1&IsVirtualParent=1) as my AV receiver.
 
Do you know if there is a good driver for that?

 

[Dean Roddey]

There's no existing driver for that specific model. These companies pop out new models like M&Ms and they all have slightly different features. But the same basic protocol document I have indicate it suports the A820, and I would think that that's just a variation on the A800. That protocol slso supports the A3000, which we do have a driver for already. 
 
If so, then it wouldn't be very costly to commission a driver for it since it would be a variation on something that already exists, as long as you are talking about just the day to day basic control needs, which is all that generally a driver should provide. There's no need to supporta ll of teh configuration oriented stuff in a driver.
 
Just make sure that that A820 also provides the control interface. Sometimes they support it in some models and not in others for non-obvious reasons. But given that the A800 is mentioned, then I would think that the A820 would also.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Some poking about would seem to indicate that the 820 does indeed support the control protocol interface.

 

[wuench]

I run CQC on VM guest under VMWare Server 2.0 on a Win7 host.  The CQC VM is running on XP with 2GB of memory, but that is because I use RDP in a separate session to run my interface viewer, you could probably get away with 512MB under XP.  I think the trickiest part is to get the hardware to show up under your VM.  I haven't run VMWare/Virtualbox on linux but as long as you can get thing like USB ports to show up (if you need them for any drivers) I can't think of any other issues.  If you want IR control the USBUIRT is pretty solid under CQC, and the aforementioned Global Cache works great too, and in that case it's all over Ethernet so no USB drivers needed.
 
The Denon amps are also pretty widely supported by CQC.  You may not find a driver for the exact model but the protocol is pretty much the same across all models with the exception of things like input/output names, surround modes, and some advanced features (HD Radio, Pandora, etc).

 

[GimpMaster]

Some poking about would seem to indicate that the 820 does indeed support the control protocol interface.

 
Thanks very much Dean, My next question I think you would be great to answer.
 
I just spent a long time on the phone with a sales rep for a home automation site. He suggested that there is no reason I would need CQC or Homeseer or software like that if I went with a hardware controller such as ELK M1G. The reason being that I can program the ELK with their software for all my rules and controls. I know I need to do more investigating with what the control software does but could you give me a couple of key highlights that I can go back with to the rep.
 
Thanks

 

[Dean Roddey]

He's not taking into consideration a lot of things that the Elk can't do. Even if it were only on the touch screen front, CQC would take you vastly beyond what the Elk itself can do. But it also brings in lots of other types of devices that the Elk can't control particularly in the media and theater area, internet based information sources, media mangement, and so forth. So, while there is some overlap, as to whether you might control something via the Elk (and hence CQC via the the Elk) or letting CQC control it directly, there's a huge amount of stuff that isn't overlapping at all.
 
He may tell you that the Elk can control a lot of those devices as well, but he means it can send out simple one way control strings that have to be manually set up. CQC provides two way control of those devices, which makes for a much more powerful system that can react to the state of things.

 

[pete_c]

Personally its related to what you want to do relating to automation and part of the whole DIY stuff. 
 
A vendor will typically stay / sell within the realm of what a panel will do or can do; and not much else.   
 
That said the Elk and HAI panels have evolved to much more relating to "automation" than their competiton today as they were the only players in the realm of embedded hardware automation for many years. 
 
In order to stay competitive the two company's panels will have to evolve even more doing more being able to connect to more devices.  This though is my opinion.
 
My panel manages the "heartbeat" of the home; which is stuff I do no pay attention to anymore as long as it works.  I do not even consider it automation anymore; just a functional box which does whatever with whatever I have connected to it.  IE: I pull into my driveway and start a series of events which I do not pay attention to anymore but are taken care of by the panel; guess its just function for me today.  The HAI panel today though does talk X10, UPB and Z-Wave.  I don't really pay attention anymore as it does its job. 
 
In the 80's/ 90's/2000's though it was neat that I could turn on a light with a device sitting on the powerline; today its really just functional. 
 
Personally while I do play with the panel; I let it do its job as it does it well.
 
Relating to automation software today; its totally different relating to what it does.  I mean if all you want to do is control any of one (only) utilized powerline, hybrid or wireless automation devices and nothing else; you can do all that with a tiny embedded piece of hardware; really why waste a PC or software to control one Z-Wave PIM?
 
I was doing that in the 1980's and it was neat to be able to remote control my X10 modules.  In the 1980's I used TTS with my alarm panel as it was part of the embedded software; but a real PITA to set up.  It was basically just a large vocabulary of words that I had to put together per event / zone / et al.
 
Today with my automation software and many pieces of hardware (here some 16 plus serial devices and multiple USB devices.) do much more that my OPII panel.  I keep adding more and doing more with this stuff every day at a totally different level than the panel that I have in the house.  I do run multiple processes, multiple scripts, events that talk to all of the analog devices connected all at the same time literally taking automation (what I consider automation today) to a new level. 

 

[GimpMaster]

Thank you again for your comments. Just one quick follow up question regarding CQC or Homeseer or any other software controller.
 
Do you need to do any ELK M1 programing if CQC is controlling the ELK hardware?

 

[Dean Roddey]

You may or may not, depending on how you want to set it up. CQC can certainly provide far more complex automation logic through a simpler interface, and interface with all your devices including those connected via the Elk plus those that are not. But, some folks will still  put at least some of the simpler, more core rules on the Elk, just because it makes them feel safer that those are handled at this very low, embedded hardware level. It's not required though, since CQC can provide all the logic you want to do if you want to do it that way.