M1G wireless installation advice

[amacphee]

I have been digging through this forum for about a month now and finally joined. This forum is full of great information. I still have a few questions I would like to ask though.

I am moving into a new house in about a month and I am trying to spec out my M1G setup for security before moving on the the automation fun. The house was not pre-wired for an alarm system so I am going to have to do some wireless solutions for areas that will otherwise be difficult to run wires to. I will be wiring in as much as I can to save cost and improve reliability.

Here is my shopping list of parts:

- M1G system package (can't seem to post the link but I am getting the nice package from smarthome)
- Wireless reciever M1XRF2G
- Extra keypad M1KPB
- Wireless door sensors 5800Micra
- Wireless Glass break sensors
- Wireless Motion sensors
- Data bus hub M1DBH (do I need this?)

So my questions are:
- Do I need a data bus hub for the second keypad which I am planning on using Cat5e for (primary pad also using cat5e)?
- I am looking to use mostly wireless but at least one wired glass break sensor. What is a good wireless sensor (around $80)? Wired sensor?
- Mostly wireless for the motion sensors too. Good wireless? wired?
- I have crank out casement windows. I was told you can't really pry them open so a window sensor is not worth it. I was told to just do glass break sensors instead but I am worried about false alarms while I am in the house. Do I need to worry about this?
- Anyone have any experience with the 5800Micra?
- I have found quite a few security supply shops but they seem pretty expensive. Any suggestions on good online sites to buy from?
- What else am I missing? The M1G kit I am getting seems to have quite a bit of stuff but I am sure I am missing something.

I am very excited to get started on my first Security/Home automation project. I am a software engineer so this should be geektastic!

 

[signal15]

I have been digging through this forum for about a month now and finally joined. This forum is full of great information. I still have a few questions I would like to ask though.

I am moving into a new house in about a month and I am trying to spec out my M1G setup for security before moving on the the automation fun. The house was not pre-wired for an alarm system so I am going to have to do some wireless solutions for areas that will otherwise be difficult to run wires to. I will be wiring in as much as I can to save cost and improve reliability.

Here is my shopping list of parts:

- M1G system package (can't seem to post the link but I am getting the nice package from smarthome)
- Wireless reciever M1XRF2G
- Extra keypad M1KPB
- Wireless door sensors 5800Micra
- Wireless Glass break sensors
- Wireless Motion sensors
- Data bus hub M1DBH (do I need this?)

So my questions are:
- Do I need a data bus hub for the second keypad which I am planning on using Cat5e for (primary pad also using cat5e)?
- I am looking to use mostly wireless but at least one wired glass break sensor. What is a good wireless sensor (around $80)? Wired sensor?
- Mostly wireless for the motion sensors too. Good wireless? wired?
- I have crank out casement windows. I was told you can't really pry them open so a window sensor is not worth it. I was told to just do glass break sensors instead but I am worried about false alarms while I am in the house. Do I need to worry about this?
- Anyone have any experience with the 5800Micra?
- I have found quite a few security supply shops but they seem pretty expensive. Any suggestions on good online sites to buy from?
- What else am I missing? The M1G kit I am getting seems to have quite a bit of stuff but I am sure I am missing something.

I am very excited to get started on my first Security/Home automation project. I am a software engineer so this should be geektastic!

The data bus hub makes your wiring cleaner and makes it easier to add other devices later on. I would get it. It's cheap.

Wireless motion sensors usually have a several minute lockout on transmitting repeated "not secure" signals to conserve battery power. For security, they are fine, but this lockout can be problematic when trying to use them as occupancy sensors for automation tasks.

Glass breaks will false alarm. I forgot the name of the ones I have, but the one in the ceiling under my dining room will alarm if the kiddo knocks over a barstool right above it. His bag of legos thrown on the floor will also false alarm. I use the lego bag for testing because it sounds just like breaking glass. I remember seeing some that would also require an air pressure change to be set off, but I couldn't find them when I looked a few months ago.

The Micras are awesome, and cheap.

Automated Outlet is who I usually go through for this stuff. They have a lot of weird stuff you can't find anywhere else, and some of the best prices. However, I've noticed that if you can't find something you want on their site, you should call them because they usually have it.

You are forgetting speakers. If you have things you want to control with outputs, you might want to get a relay board also. Ethernet expander is nice to have for programming over the network and sending emails or SMS messages.

 

[Neurorad]

If the house is new construction or otherwise unoccupied, then cut up the walls and run cables. Fixing drywall and spot painting is easy if its unoccupied. Some locations will be easier than others - use wireless in those tough places.

Wireless is more expensive than hardwired, for devices.

As Signal15 said, hardwired motions are best.

If you decide to hardwire a few runs before you move in, go nuts and run more cables for other things.

Keypads, if I'm not mistaken, need to be hardwired, so wire for all the locations that may ever have keypads (or touchscreens).

 

[amacphee]

Thanks for the responses.

So I could put the data bus in the attic, wire my keypads to it there and then send a single cat5e down to the basement right? Can I plug a zone input expander to the data bus and hard wire some of my stuff that way? Glass break sensors and motion detectors should be easy to wire into the attic if I use those. I already have cat5e run to many of the rooms so I could use one of those to send the data bus down to the basement.

Any suggestions for hard wired Motion and Glass Break sensors?

Also, is it worth putting reed sensors at the windows or should I just do the glass break sensors? It seems like glass break is a lot cheaper but I do want to have proper security coverage.

 

[mustangcoupe]

Thanks for the responses.

So I could put the data bus in the attic, wire my keypads to it there and then send a single cat5e down to the basement right? Can I plug a zone input expander to the data bus and hard wire some of my stuff that way? Glass break sensors and motion detectors should be easy to wire into the attic if I use those. I already have cat5e run to many of the rooms so I could use one of those to send the data bus down to the basement.

Any suggestions for hard wired Motion and Glass Break sensors?

Also, is it worth putting reed sensors at the windows or should I just do the glass break sensors? It seems like glass break is a lot cheaper but I do want to have proper security coverage.

Correct with the data bus hub

as for the windows. are you going to have motion sensors in every room? if not I'd say also put contact on the windows. Check out this topic I beleive automated outlet is working on getting these in their inventory

http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14736


Give Brandon at Automated outlet a call I bet they can compare price wise to smarthome, but with better pre and post sales support!

 

[signal15]

Glass Breaks - Rokonet. The mount in a single gang box and are unobtrusive. I have them in every room.
Motions - Bosch Blue Line. I have their PIR's inside ($10 each), and the PIR/Microwave combos outside ($40 each).

The ELK input expanders are great, because you can run a single cable to a location and mount the expander there to get 16 zones wired back to that location instead of all the way to your panel.

I didn't bother with sensors on every window in my house. I'm very good about closing and locking them, and I'm pretty sure there would be no way around breaking the glass if you tried to pry them open. The motions will get them anyway if they do manage to open the window without prying, even at night when armed on night mode.

As far as wiring goes, if you can get a clear path from your panel to your attic, you are golden. Stick a subpanel in the attic, put an input expander in it, and drop the wires down to where they need to go. I mounted most of my glass breaks in the ceiling. Also, if you have a run to the attic, pull more wire than you think you need. Then double that number and run that much. Wire is cheap. Using 110 punchdown blocks is a great way to do crossconnects also.

Here's a trick... Take an unfolded metal coathanger, put it in a drill, and drill up through the ceiling with it. Take the drill off of it, leaving the hanger in place. Go up into the attic, run wire to that exact location, and either mount your surface mount device to the ceiling or put in a recessed box from below.

Wireless does work well, but nothing beats wired for reliability and response time. Plus, I've been playing with some radio equipment/software lately that definitely leads me to believe (actually, I know) that wireless is bypassable by an attacker who knew what he was doing. Probably not much of an issue for a homeowner, but definitely an issue for a location with high value targets. So unless you are afraid of assassins, or have a vault full of gold, I wouldn't worry. I have wired all of my security sensors, but some of my HA sensors are wireless. And one of my gun safes is wireless because I didn't want to drill holes in it. But, any future wired runs that take me more than an hour to complete are just going to end up wireless. I'm done running wire for HA/security if it takes any amount of work. I have another several thousand feet to run for network, and I already have a 4" bundle in my basement.

 

[signal15]

I should also mention, that audible glass break sensors are NOT 100%. If you're careful about where you place them, you'll be pretty good. But there is a way to bypass them which most people don't know about. I won't post it here, but you should be aware that it is possible and that you should have motions or interior sensors to catch anyone that might get past the glassbreak, either because they got lucky and it didn't alert, or because they knew how to bypass.

We set all of our interior sensors as night mode. If we go anywhere else in the house after we go to bed, the arming state must be changed. No one can move anywhere in the house except for two different bedrooms and the kitchen and the path between. It would be virtually impossible to get anywhere.

For the record, I'm not paranoid. I just happen to have to think about similar issues for a living. But I'm not in the alarm industry, so many people on this forum probably have better advice than I.

DO NOT forget to put sensors on your upper levels. Most people never do this, and it can be a very common entry point because of it. There are also sensors called pulsor sensors that detect the flex in a deck or roof truss. Depending on the architecture of your house, it might be worth looking into.

Ok, so I am paranoid. But it's a hobby.

 

[Digger]

I should also mention, that audible glass break sensors are NOT 100%. If you're careful about where you place them, you'll be pretty good. But there is a way to bypass them which most people don't know about. I won't post it here, but you should be aware that it is possible and that you should have motions or interior sensors to catch anyone that might get past the glassbreak, either because they got lucky and it didn't alert, or because they knew how to bypass.

We set all of our interior sensors as night mode. If we go anywhere else in the house after we go to bed, the arming state must be changed. No one can move anywhere in the house except for two different bedrooms and the kitchen and the path between. It would be virtually impossible to get anywhere.

For the record, I'm not paranoid. I just happen to have to think about similar issues for a living. But I'm not in the alarm industry, so many people on this forum probably have better advice than I.

DO NOT forget to put sensors on your upper levels. Most people never do this, and it can be a very common entry point because of it. There are also sensors called pulsor sensors that detect the flex in a deck or roof truss. Depending on the architecture of your house, it might be worth looking into.

Ok, so I am paranoid. But it's a hobby.

A few years ago there was a small group that was breaking into houses by cutting through the roof and dropping in to the upper floors of high end houses. It took a while for them to be caught because most people who did have security systems apparently did not have protection on that floor.

If I remember correctly they got caught when they dropped in on an occupied home, ran like hell, and the cops chased them down.

I only put one motion in the upstairs hall and water sensors (bathroom) in the upper floor. I have tons of contacts and sensors here, just no energy to install them lately.

 

[amacphee]

Thanks guys! This should get me going in the right direction. Lucky for me I am in a ranch house so I only have the first floor and the basement to secure. The attic gives me access to the whole first level so wiring should be much easier. It is saving me a few hundred bucks to go with wired motion and glass break sensors. I was looking at the Sentrol 5812NT Series ShatterPro 3 for the glass break and the Bosch Blue line ISMBLP1P motion sensor.

I was looking at bulk cable and I was wondering if anyone has used phone cable to wire security sensors? That seems like the least expensive option for 4 wire cable. Cat5e seems pretty inexpensive too but the phone cable is half the price.

 

[signal15]

Thanks guys! This should get me going in the right direction. Lucky for me I am in a ranch house so I only have the first floor and the basement to secure. The attic gives me access to the whole first level so wiring should be much easier. It is saving me a few hundred bucks to go with wired motion and glass break sensors. I was looking at the Sentrol 5812NT Series ShatterPro 3 for the glass break and the Bosch Blue line ISMBLP1P motion sensor.

I was looking at bulk cable and I was wondering if anyone has used phone cable to wire security sensors? That seems like the least expensive option for 4 wire cable. Cat5e seems pretty inexpensive too but the phone cable is half the price.

Check Monoprice.com for cable. They are typically WAY cheaper than anyone else, and their cable is some of highest quality stuff I've seen. I wired everything with Cat6.

 

[amacphee]

Monoprice is a favorite of mine. I was just wondering if there was a minimum on the cable quality required for wiring this stuff.

Prices for bulk cable 1000ft:
Cat6 $92
Cat5e $62
Phone $33

Is there something about using Cat6 for wiring security that makes it worth the extra $? I understand why it is better for networking but I am only running gigabit. It isn't much more so on second thought the Cat5e/6 is probably worth it just for using the extras for networking stuff. Having an extra 500ft of phone cable would just be useless

Edit: Should I do stranded or solid for Cat5e?

 

[signal15]

If you're running in the walls, use solid core. Stranded is typically only for making patch cords.

Here are the reasons you use Cat6 over anything else:
- 23 AWG instead of 24AWG like Cat5e
- Will support 10G connections if you ever need them (which you will)
- Supports network obviously
- 4 pair in each cable instead of just 2 with most phone wire or 22/4
- You can use Cat6 for just about anything, including audio and HDMI
- At some point, some sensors may use ethernet

If you're spending the time and effort to run the wire, overdo it. At some point, you will probably need it. And if you run crappy wire, at some point you may kick yourself when it doesn't support something 10 years down the road. Future-proof as much as possible. When I ran my wire in my old house, I doubled what I thought I would need, and I still ended up running short. In this house, I'm quadrupling what I think I need, and in some locations, that wasn't enough. Wire is cheap, if you're going through all the effort of running it, put in way more than you need, higher quality than you think you need, and terminate it properly with 110 blocks.

And if you don't think you'll ever need 10G connections, you are probably wrong. I can't stream some of the HD videos I have over a 100M connection, everything has to be plugged into my gig switch. When SuperHD comes out, which is like 4000P, then 1Gig/sec won't be enough to stream it. Plus, if you're doing backups, streaming HD surveillance camera video, or whatever, you are going to need the extra speed. 10 years ago, most everything out there was 10M, even in enterprise datacenters. 100M had just hit the market. Right now we're seeing 1G consumer switches. If speeds go up at the same rate (which they traditionally do), well be at 100Gig 10 years from now in consumer equipment. That day may come sooner than that also.

 

[ddennerline]

I have a hybrid wireless/wired system. All doors use hardwired magnet sensors because if someone kicks them in, I want to 100% reliability. I use Visonic Duet Motions that are hardwired too. Windows use new GE DesignLine TX-1010-01-1 because it would have been a major pain retrofit/install 12 double pane windows. I use a Rokonet WatchOut DualTech Outdoor sensor in front of house for visitor/prowler notification. For glass breaks, I use Honeywell FG-1625 FlexGuard Recessed.

Installing the hardwired sensors is a major pain. Although through lots of trial and error, I really have it down to a science now. The only catch is that you may want to check to see if one of the major paint stores can match you wall color. Basically, I use a 2†or 4†inch wide hole saw and drill next near the door jamb. The hole saw makes a nice neat hole with the added benefit that the blank can be re-installed. Use an extra long 7/16 inch auger and drill from the door side back toward new hole. Use a 3/4 inch forester bit over 1/8 inch inside jamb to hide the top of magnet (this is a little overkill though ). To reinstall the blank, you apply a whole lot of mud around the hold, staple two strips fiberglass tap on top of the blank, and push it back into the hole. I recommend the new low-dust mud along with a vacuum wallboard sander. In situations where sensor can be mounted straight to the wall (i.e., keypads, motions, and glassbreaks), I am now using a magnepull http://www.magnepull.com/. It still requires a 1.25 inch exit hole, so some patching is still required. Did I mention that you should double check before touching any walls to ensure touch-up paint is an accurate match?

I know that the “pros†can probably install the sensors without messing up the interior. Because I wanted the wiring closet and sensors installed in certain locations, I had to make more wall repairs than experienced installer with tricks of the trade.

I purchased most of my security stuff from homesecuritystore.com. Lately, I have been using automated outlet.com and icanautomate.com for home automation devices.

 

[signal15]

Are you ultimately going from the door frame down through the floor into the basement? If so, just pop the door trim off, drill a hole between the frame and the studs down through the floor and run your wire up that way. No messing with sheetrock at all. I did all of my exterior doors this way. Any interior doors all are all Micra wireless sensors, since I'm just using those for automation and not security.

 

[amacphee]

Thanks guys! This information is great. That magnapull thing is for sure getting ordered . That should save some time. Luckily I should be able to het most of the wiring done from the attic. There will be the one pull from the attic to the basement that shouldn't be too bad. Worst case I need to make a hole in the bottom of the wall to get it through from the first floor to the basement. I will be using wireless micra switches for all of the doors to make things a bit easier (plus they are too cool not to get).

I thinnk the hard part will be the programming and setup.

Thanks again guys!