M1G's "16" zones vs "keypad zones" & other questions

[miamicanes]

While reading through my new M1GSYS4's installation guide, I got the impression that each keypad (well, the original, and 'KP2 at least) can ALSO serve as a mini input/output expander, and host an additional input and output... above and beyond the 16 that can be connected directly to the M1G's control panel.

Is that correct? Does that imply that an out-of-the-box M1G with a classic keypad and an additional low-profile keypad can actually handle 18 input zones (with zones 17 and 18 wired to their nearest keypads instead of to the controller)?

On a related note... I've come to the conclusion that trying to bore a ~1" hole through the suspended slab between my first and second floor is pretty much hopeless as a DIY project (So far I've broken two 1/4" masonry bits just trying to bore the first pilot hole, and only have a little more than an inch of depth and a torn-off basebord to show for it). So... I started looking for alternate ways to connect the master bedroom's keypad to the M1G almost directly below. For some reason, the M1G's keypads apparently won't work with anything that tries to act like a transparent RS-485 bridge via some alternate transport medium (wireless, ethernet, etc), and I'd REALLY prefer to avoid doing something as barbaric as running the wires up the side of the house on the outside, which leaves... the original 6-wire phone line put in by the builder.

As far as I can tell, there's a straight, uninterrupted run between the telco demarc (which just so happens to be next to the M1G controller, and will probably never be used by an actual telephone again) and the jack in the master bedroom. So... I came up with the following idea:

* Use wires 1-4 for the keypad bus to connect the keypad in the master bedroom to the M1G's controller (which, non-coincidentally, happens to be right next to the telco demarc that will probably never again be connected to actual AT&T landlines).

* Connect wire #5 to the Zone 16 input on the M1G, and connect the other end (and the common neg wire from the keypad bus) to a 2-wire smoke alarm

* Connect wire #6 to the Zone 15 input on the M1G, and connect the other end (and common neg wire from keypad bus) to a pressure pad hidden below the carpet in the upstairs hallway between the master bedroom, computer room, and stairway landing.

* Connect the magnetic sensor on the master bedroom's window directly to the extra input on the master bedroom's keypad.

Does this sound like something with a reasonable chance of working?

 

[HighTest]

On a related note... I've come to the conclusion that trying to bore a ~1" hole through the suspended slab between my first and second floor is pretty much hopeless as a DIY project

Hope that isn't "Post tension concrete". If you drill through that, you might find the tension rods shooting out the sides of your home.

Nasty!!

So again, I'd really check if that's the case before trying to drill. Seriously, nicking one of the tension cables can be "explosive".

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Yes, I was going to mention the same thing. Hope that is not post tension as stated above, if you drill through one of the cables, the results would not be desirable (putting it modestly)

If it is not post tension, go rent a Hilti hammer drill at your hardware store (with the needed concrete bits) and it should drill through it like butter.

 

[AnotherOne]

Is that correct? Does that imply that an out-of-the-box M1G with a classic keypad and an additional low-profile keypad can actually handle 18 input zones (with zones 17 and 18 wired to their nearest keypads instead of to the controller)?

You get one input zone and one output zone per keyapd. So with one keypad and a base unit you'll have 17 input zones. The numbers will be 1 thru 16 and 193. Add a second keypad and you'll have input zone 194 (assuming you assign the keypad as keypad 2).

 

[miamicanes]

On a related note... I've come to the conclusion that trying to bore a ~1" hole through the suspended slab between my first and second floor is pretty much hopeless as a DIY project

Hope that isn't "Post tension concrete". If you drill through that, you might find the tension rods shooting out the sides of your home.

Nasty!!

So again, I'd really check if that's the case before trying to drill. Seriously, nicking one of the tension cables can be "explosive".

I'm pretty sure it's not post-tensioned. The maximum span between concrete walls is only 18 feet, and it's only two stories. Post-tensioning is common in skyscrapers because it allows developers to squeeze in another floor or two, or offer high-end units with fewer columns, but it would be almost unheard of to use post-tensioning for anything less than ~25 foot spans because up to that point, it's cheaper to just make the slab's beams deeper, or use a waffle-grid design to spread the load around a little more.

Update on the wiring topology: I was wrong. Totally. It's actually a 'Z' formation. From the demarc (rear of first floor, between kitchen and laundry room), one cable runs up a conduit to AT&T, and one cable (which I'll call "segment 1") runs down a conduit to the living room -- front of first floor, though the jack itself is located near the center of the house, and almost directly below what I believe is the location of the vertical air duct between the first & second floor... given how awful the jack's location is (as a "living room" phone jack), I'm guessing that the builder put it there so he could say "there's a phone in the living room (sort of)", but save money by running it straight up through the hole in the slab from that point. From there, the cable (which I'll call "segment 2") runs up and over to the master bedroom (rear of second floor). From there, it runs to the second bedroom (front of second floor) via what I'll call "segment 3".

New tentative plan:

* 4 wires from data bus connector on M1G to start of segment 1 a few feet away
* 4 wires of segment 1 to location of former phone jack in living room
* 4 wires from end of segment 1 to M1KP2 (~20 feet total)
* 4 wires from M1KP2 back to location of former living room phone jack
* 4 wires continue to M1XIN, ~10 feet away
* 4 wires continue back to former living room phone jack to start of segment 2
* 4 wires of segment 2 to master bedroom's former phone jack
* 4 wires to master bedroom's (terminated) M1KP
* black wire from keypad bus and blue wire from keypad to master bedroom's window sensor
* using 2 wires of segment 3 (from master bedroom to front bedroom), connect front bedroom's window sensor in series with the master bedroom's window sensor (an actual break-in through either window would be almost inconceivable, because they'd need a ladder AND have to physically tear down the bahama-style hurricane shutter over the window, so it's not worth the cost of another M1XIN)
* using wire 5 of segment 2 and segment 1 (running all the way back to zone 16's input on the M1G), connect a 2-wire smoke alarm (also using the black wire from the master bedroom's keypad bus).
* Using wire 6 of segment 2 and the black wire from the master bedroom's keypad bus, connect the pressure pad under the upstairs hallway to the M1XIN between segment 2 and segment 1.
* Wire 6 of segment 1 is used to connect the M1G to its speaker/siren. If the signal just plain has too much power for a single 24# wire to handle, I'll have to somehow attenuate the signal output by the M1G's controller to something 24# can sanely carry, then amplify it at the other end. Or maybe digitize it, transmit it over the wire at ~64-128kbps, and reconstitute it at the other end
* Somehow, I'm going to have to kludge a wireless intercom (or at least one that can run over wireless ethernet or power lines) and make it look like a plain microphone and speaker to the M1TWI.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Actually, my foundation in my house is post-tension.

 

[HighTest]

While reading through my new M1GSYS4's installation guide, I got the impression that each keypad (well, the original, and 'KP2 at least) can ALSO serve as a mini input/output expander, and host an additional input and output... above and beyond the 16 that can be connected directly to the M1G's control panel.

Is that correct? Does that imply that an out-of-the-box M1G with a classic keypad and an additional low-profile keypad can actually handle 18 input zones (with zones 17 and 18 wired to their nearest keypads instead of to the controller)?

Yep, this is correct! Not only do you receive one input per keypad, you also have one output. With the appropriate relay module attached, you can use this to control a door strike, garage door operation, etc. The only "keypad" to not have a zone input/output is the small decora sized arming station (keypad only with no LCD display). So in summary, the KP1, KP2 and KP3 all provide you input/outputs. KP1 can also use an internal prox reader (KP2 and KP3 can use external 26bit Weigand compatible reader) and the KP1 also has a built in temperature module.

One recommendation. Don't run your smokes on the same cable as another service. Instead run their own dedicated wire that is rated for use with smoke detectors and is red. This won't violate the code that sharing another wire would. Also if a wire is damaged, it only affects that specific zone, rather than multiple zones.

In fact, while it'd be a whole lot more wire, run a wire for each device, the exception being any inputs/outputs that can be provided by the keypad itself. You can never have too much wire in my opinion.

 

[miamicanes]

One recommendation. Don't run your smokes on the same cable as another service. Instead run their own dedicated wire that is rated for use with smoke detectors and is red. This won't violate the code that sharing another wire would. Also if a wire is damaged, it only affects that specific zone, rather than multiple zones.

In fact, while it'd be a whole lot more wire, run a wire for each device, the exception being any inputs/outputs that can be provided by the keypad itself. You can never have too much wire in my opinion.

Well, I'd love to run lots of wire, but unfortunately the way my house was built means running lots of wire won't be cheap.

My immediate smoke detector plan is to basically put one 120vac smoke detector (with its own sounder, and ideally with light that comes on when triggered or during power failure) in the upstairs hallway, replacing the one that was put in by the original builder, and wire it to one of the 16-zone input expanders so the M1 can detect when it's going off. Basically, no worse than what I have now, with the added bonus that if it DOES go off, there's a good chance the M1 will realize it and be able to make the call to the fire department automatically while I'm busy rescuing my kitties.

As a practical matter, I'm really not that worried about the house going up in flames unnoticed while I'm there. It's a concrete vault. Walls, foundation, suspended slab, and roof. The furring strips, molding, cabinets, and (some of) the furniture are just about the only wood in the entire house. I'm sure that with a little effort someone could probably get a major fire going and find something to burn, but we're not talking about a typical midwestern tinderbox built from stapled-together matchsticks. Every time I go up north (especially during the winter), it amazes me how common house fires are up there. That's not to say it NEVER happens in Florida... but they're pretty rare, to the point where criminal activity (arson, murder, meth-making) is almost automatically taken for granted (and 95% of the time, proves to be a correct assumption... the other 5% of the time, some idiot in a public housing project started a trash fire).