Medic-alert style solution for M1 Gold?

[majortom]

"I've fallen and I can't get up!" - I want to build a medic-alert style system using an M1 Gold panel and I am not sure how to go about it.
It would need some kind of wireless pendent (maybe with two buttons for security and medical) that is (ideally) waterproof. It would also need a two-way audio monitoring system so that the user could talk back to the responder and explain what the problem is.

Does Elk (or any compatible manufacturer) have something similar to the ELK-106050 or ELK-106068 that can be used with an M1-Gold? In an IP monitored system, is there a way to do two-way listen in similar to the M1TWA (which I think needs a standard phone line)?

Anything else I am missing?

 

[apostolakisl]

It looks like you have already found all the parts that Elk has for doing stuff like that. I don't think even the company that has the famous "I've fallen and can't get up" commercials has the mic/speaker in the necklace. How about a cell phone with a simplified user interface that just calls one emergency number with the press of a button and runs on speaker phone mode?

 

[tmbrown97]

Let's get to some specifics - do you want the system to call an individual or a monitoring service? There are ways to make the 2-way system connect to a SIP line or Google Voice or other.

As Lou said, the LifeAlert system just triggers a box that's plugged into a phone line. The two-way audio comes from the box not the pendant and only comes from a single location, so the 3 channels of Audio on the Elk solution is already an improvement.

Depending on your wireless receiver, there are panic buttons that can be worn. Search for GE Crystal Panic and you'll see a wristwatch style and a pendant style.

 

[Del91574]

The parts you listed are not compatible with the M1G.

Depending on your RF receiver, that would dictate Honeywell or GE, with different styles. Of note, even though GE lists some of their units as waterproof, they are not.

2 way voice would require a VOIP or POTS line for the CS to enter in DTMF commands to initiate the session as well as end the session. The unknown quantity is how your VOIP setup would respond to DTMF tones from an outside source (typically, it's something like *** or *55 to start the AVI session). Also, the CS needs to be rated for AVI and know your particular hardware, as not all manufacturers are created (or function) the same as far as the CS operators go. You can't just pick and choose if you want to put AVI on an account without talking to the CS as far as supported hardware.

IMHO, the easiest hardware would be a standalone PERS system, that is out of the box designed to do what you want, as well as a CS that is trained and supports PERS systems.

 

[majortom]

The parts you listed are not compatible with the M1G.

I know that, hence my question. (Just to confirm, you are only talking about the pendent/key fobs, as the TWA is from the M1 line and should work, right?).

Depending on your RF receiver, that would dictate Honeywell or GE, with different styles. Of note, even though GE lists some of their units as waterproof, they are not.

Does Honeywell make a pendent or wrist watch style fob that is waterproof? What is the range on these units? The house is 3 stories, would a centrally located receiver (middle floor in the middle of the house) likely cover the whole place? If not, can devices be paired to more than one receiver at the same time?

2 way voice would require a VOIP or POTS line for the CS to enter in DTMF commands to initiate the session as well as end the session. The unknown quantity is how your VOIP setup would respond to DTMF tones from an outside source (typically, it's something like *** or *55 to start the AVI session). Also, the CS needs to be rated for AVI and know your particular hardware, as not all manufacturers are created (or function) the same as far as the CS operators go. You can't just pick and choose if you want to put AVI on an account without talking to the CS as far as supported hardware.

Do you know of anyone that monitors ELK systems that supports their TWA? I currently have at least one POTS line that I would leave for this purpose. Eventually, I would love to have a system that was totally IP based (not VoIP to analog phone module, but a native SIP interface) but I presume that does not exist yet (I have looked and have not found anything).

IMHO, the easiest hardware would be a standalone PERS system, that is out of the box designed to do what you want, as well as a CS that is trained and supports PERS systems.

I would consider such a system, but so far I have not found one that will cover a house as large as this one. I expect to have to have around 20 speaker/mic zones to cover the whole house. This is necessary, as the rooms are all well sound insulated and have solid core doors, meaning that each room really needs its own zone to ensure that the person could be heard.

 

[Del91574]

I don't know what your acronym is, but I'm guessing it's intended for AVS? (I missed the last letter in my prior post, was a long, hot day troubleshooting fiber and camera failures)

None of the manufacturers have a truly waterproof button/fob/watch type item. The key words are water resistant. They are gasketed and seal to some extent, however would they survive a dip in a bathtub, spa or pool, I wouldn't want to be the one to try it to see how waterproof or resistant the unit may be. I think the best way to approach the subject would be remove the device(s) before immersion. If something is needed to really be waterproof, then I'd recommend hardwiring a sealed unit back to a transmitter or the main panel, otherwise I'd plan on a cost of ownership factor, as well as increased need for testing the units. Almost every manufacturer isn't going to have an issue with a house that size, as long as construction details cooperate.

As far as a CS that provides AVS, I can't comment for those that would work with an end user, I have my own that I deal with. The largest issue is having a CS that is familiar with the commands for your particular manufacturer's AVS unit. You're not going to find a PERS system that is strictly IP, far too many liabilities and other issues to contend with. Cellular, yes, IP, no.

As far as the M1 is concerned, you're going to be limited to 3 zones of audio/mic no matter how you cut it. The largest factor on MIC/SPKR for AVS is ambient noise, the mics really pick up a lot of sound, but if the CS has tons of ambient, they're not going to hear what's going on, or even worse, with multiple speakers and mics, feedback, since an "all call" is going to happen when a signal is sent to the CS.

 

[apostolakisl]

I see a novel worth of discussion above, but if you really want a two way comm anywhere in the house (or anywhere anywhere. . . like the backyard, basement, garage, a block away on the sidewalk, etc) that goes directly to a pre-designated calling center (or whoever), they do make cell phones for that purpose. This would far and away be the most fool proof setup and require no complex manipulation of your system. It just blows away anything you could do with the Elk for this type of thing.

http://www.homesecur...ert-system.aspx

 

[majortom]

I don't know what your acronym is, but I'm guessing it's intended for AVS? (I missed the last letter in my prior post, was a long, hot day troubleshooting fiber and camera failures)

Not sure which acronym you mean (if it is TWA that is ELK-M1TWA their two-way audio system).

None of the manufacturers have a truly waterproof button/fob/watch type item. The key words are water resistant. They are gasketed and seal to some extent, however would they survive a dip in a bathtub, spa or pool, I wouldn't want to be the one to try it to see how waterproof or resistant the unit may be. I think the best way to approach the subject would be remove the device(s) before immersion. If something is needed to really be waterproof, then I'd recommend hardwiring a sealed unit back to a transmitter or the main panel, otherwise I'd plan on a cost of ownership factor, as well as increased need for testing the units.

That really is too bad. The prime motivation for installing a system like this would be something that is small enough and light enough to carry/wear everywhere and always. Mounting a few switches in the shower and bathroom might be a good addition to the solution, but would still leave gaps in coverage.

Almost every manufacturer isn't going to have an issue with a house that size, as long as construction details cooperate.

That is good to know. Between Honeywell and GE, do you feel that one has units that are much better than the other for this purpose.

You're not going to find a PERS system that is strictly IP, far too many liabilities and other issues to contend with. Cellular, yes, IP, no.

While I am sure you are correct based on my own research, it is ironic, since in this case the internet connection is much more reliable than the phone lines have been (and more reliable than the local cell net). While it would be possible to have an m2m system connected to a cellular system that was verifying connectivity and heartbeat, doing that for a POTS line is much more difficult. An IP based system could easily be designed to check in on a regular basis (or even maintain a constant channel), with no real issues.

As far as the M1 is concerned, you're going to be limited to 3 zones of audio/mic no matter how you cut it. The largest factor on MIC/SPKR for AVS is ambient noise, the mics really pick up a lot of sound, but if the CS has tons of ambient, they're not going to hear what's going on, or even worse, with multiple speakers and mics, feedback, since an "all call" is going to happen when a signal is sent to the CS.

It is not possible to add multiple 3-zone systems that would polled sequentially?

 

[tmbrown97]

The M1's TWA is 3 zones of input/output that work in a special way with the onboard outputs; as far as I know DEL is correct - you can only have those 3 zones.

As far as wireless sensor coverage, you can use multiple receivers at different parts of the house to ensure sufficient coverage. Most people here use GE because it's more widely available, but DEL has pointed out that Honeywell has a better range of sensor options.

 

[majortom]

I see a novel worth of discussion above, but if you really want a two way comm anywhere in the house (or anywhere anywhere. . . like the backyard, basement, garage, a block away on the sidewalk, etc) that goes directly to a pre-designated calling center (or whoever), they do make cell phones for that purpose.

The user already has an iPhone with location services enabled. The problem with it and every cellular network based system I have seen is that the devices are not waterproof, have short battery life (days not months or years), and are too big to really wear (pendent or watch style). This means that, while the user might always have it when traveling out of the home, it cannot be used in the shower (the most common slip and fall location), and since it needs to be charged on a regular basis, it is not guaranteed to be on the user all the time (i.e. it relies on the user to remember to pull it off the charger every time he or she gets out of bed to go to the bathroom for example).

This would far and away be the most fool proof setup and require no complex manipulation of your system. It just blows away anything you could do with the Elk for this type of thing.

It has certain aspects that are easier, and certain that make it much less useful. For example, at the location in question, there is poor cellular coverage in the basement and some of the interior bathrooms, making these locations problematic for such a system. Second, as I stated above, a cellular based system will have a much more limited battery life and so cannot be worn 24/7. That means that it is completely dependent on the user remembering to grab it every time he or she moves into an at risk situation. In the middle of the night when one wakes up to use the bathroom, one is least likely to remember to take the phone, but is most likely to need it.

http://www.homesecur...ert-system.aspx

Interesting system. I am not sure what it would add over an iPhone (or equivalent) with Stalk My Friends[sup]TM[/sup] enabled. I can see it being valuable for someone who does not already carry a real phone.

 

[apostolakisl]

The user already has an iPhone with location services enabled. The problem with it and every cellular network based system I have seen is that the devices are not waterproof, have short battery life (days not months or years), and are too big to really wear (pendent or watch style). This means that, while the user might always have it when traveling out of the home, it cannot be used in the shower (the most common slip and fall location), and since it needs to be charged on a regular basis, it is not guaranteed to be on the user all the time (i.e. it relies on the user to remember to pull it off the charger every time he or she gets out of bed to go to the bathroom for example).



It has certain aspects that are easier, and certain that make it much less useful. For example, at the location in question, there is poor cellular coverage in the basement and some of the interior bathrooms, making these locations problematic for such a system. Second, as I stated above, a cellular based system will have a much more limited battery life and so cannot be worn 24/7. That means that it is completely dependent on the user remembering to grab it every time he or she moves into an at risk situation. In the middle of the night when one wakes up to use the bathroom, one is least likely to remember to take the phone, but is most likely to need it.



Interesting system. I am not sure what it would add over an iPhone (or equivalent) with Stalk My Friends[sup]TM[/sup] enabled. I can see it being valuable for someone who does not already carry a real phone.

Do as you like. But that particular phone is purpose designed for your exact application. It can be worn as a pendant, is certainly small enough, light enough, and includes that option. Battery lasts about a week meaning that it need not be removed at all except during a weekly visit by a "helper". While you may have spotty cell coverage that results in poor call performance, this device is not intended as a way to chit chat endlessly without dropping or having the classic digital stutter, it just needs to send gps coordinates and distress signal to have done its most vital function.

 

[tmbrown97]

Without any opinion on the rest of the stuff above, if one were to choose a cellular-based route and coverage is an issue, it's easy enough to add either a cell booster or a microcell to help solve spotty coverage. Wilson Electronics makes great small-package cell boosters you could use to fix the basement coverage.

 

[tmbrown97]

One thing to point out regarding this - while yes, you can only have 3 zones of audio/mics per system, each zone supports up to 4 mics each, which means a single system can have 12 microphones. I just confirmed that in the manual.

 

[Del91574]

One thing to point out regarding this - while yes, you can only have 3 zones of audio/mics per system, each zone supports up to 4 mics each, which means a single system can have 12 microphones. I just confirmed that in the manual.

Yes, however control and volume is by zone, so it's still effectively 3 zones no matter how you cut it or try to control it, which may or may not work in a large AVS installation in the manner that is desired (mic bleed over and feedback)

 

[apostolakisl]

Yes, however control and volume is by zone, so it's still effectively 3 zones no matter how you cut it or try to control it, which may or may not work in a large AVS installation in the manner that is desired (mic bleed over and feedback)

You can put a mixing board on it and do as many mics as you can afford.