More INSTEON quality control issues!

[sorka]

For some reason the ~2% paddle failure rate seems awfully low.

That seems awfully low to me, too. In my previous house, I had to replace probably 10-15% of my light switches due to faulty microswitches.

Indeed, almost everyone of my switches finally developed the paddle issue. The were bought over a fairly wide range of time so cannot be part of any one lot. 2% is clearly wrong and certainly makes all the other failure stats suspect.

Smarthome did finally replace all of them last year to their credit, but now I've got scene failures due to the I2 issue.

I'm not sure which I dislike most, broken paddles, or switches that don't respond to commands

I haven't called to ask if they're replace these yet again because I'm waiting for confirmation that the I2 issue has been fixed.

 

[gatchel]

Still, its just plain piss poor customer service to not handle this right, especially if it really is a 7 year warranty. Like Lou said, why insist on a receipt when you know your product has not even been on the market that long. Even if it was an ebay sale or whatever, a mfg defect is a mfg defect. Seem like some company just doesn't want to learn from their previous blunders.

They are going to fall flat on their faces if they are not careful...

Too late. It's like their shoe strings are tied together and they are trying to run a marathon.

 

[signal15]

Up until about a month or two ago, I was seriously considering Insteon. But after reading posts here and elsewhere on the net, it appears that this is certainly not a wise choice. Even if the DO resolve their issues, it's clear that they have tried to cut some corners in order to reduce manufacturing costs. If they made a poor choice on something as simple and as cheap as a microswitch, what's to say they didn't make a similar bad decision on a line voltage component within the switch? I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't want to have to worry about my house burning down because a switch spontaneously combusts.

I had an X10 dimmer flake out and start smoking once, luckily I happened to be in the room when it happened and shut the power off right away. It did not blow the breaker on its own either.

 

[SteveL]

I know I have touched on this a few times before but maybe it will help some that are reading this for the first time. The issue with the tact switch goes back over two years. The problem was identified as a tact switch other than our spec being placed into production and many switches were produced with this component. We have announced many months ago that there is a seven-year warrantee on this problem and we continue to honor that today. Some have mentioned a current problem with the Icon switches. We had a half a dozen people that had failures over a short period and they had a common theme, a diode that was failing. We pulled the balance of the stock and upgraded all of the remaining and current icon switches with a glass diode.
There had not been a change to the design of that switch in years and very little failure reports. I appeared to be power surges that caused the problems and we decided to upgrade the component.
As far as returns for defective devices, I have always seen Smarthome stand behind the product. Where it gets a little confusing is when products are purchased on EBay or by a third party reseller where the orders are not filled through Smarthome. Smarthome sells to Home Depot & Amazon online, and in some Home Depot stores. The online orders are filled through our system and we will have a record of that for the purpose of a return. Companies like Aartech in Canada which we work with very well will take returns and we will replace Aartech. That is the way it is supposed to work. Our arrangement with third party resellers is that they take the return because the customers purchase is in their system and we replace the reseller. Like digger said, Matt has gone the extra mile for people who say that they have product but did not buy it from us or don't have any record of how to look up their purchase.
For over the last two years and closer to three the products have been very stable. This is coming from someone who has installed more of these devices than probably anyone through the bad times and now the good. We have over 70 INSTEON products and coming out with more every day. I will admit it is a challenge sometimes to make sure this process is flawless but from where I sit, we do a good job at it.

There are countless people that have purchased these products and they worked the first time and continue to do that today. There are those that have some unique installs and have had communication problems. I have personally gone to many homes and left with the system working as it should. The feedback I get form these customers has helped to make our products better. I am a license Electrical Contractor, a Home Automation Contractor for many years and currently an employee at Smartlabs the parent company of Smarthome.

Steve L
As stated in my posts: I am currently an employee at Smartlabs the parent company of Smarthome.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Steve L:

Please place your company's affiliation (Smartlabs) in your signature.

BSR

 

[Digger]

For some reason the ~2% paddle failure rate seems awfully low.

That seems awfully low to me, too. In my previous house, I had to replace probably 10-15% of my light switches due to faulty microswitches.

Indeed, almost everyone of my switches finally developed the paddle issue. The were bought over a fairly wide range of time so cannot be part of any one lot. 2% is clearly wrong and certainly makes all the other failure stats suspect.

Smarthome did finally replace all of them last year to their credit, but now I've got scene failures due to the I2 issue.

I'm not sure which I dislike most, broken paddles, or switches that don't respond to commands

I haven't called to ask if they're replace these yet again because I'm waiting for confirmation that the I2 issue has been fixed.

Steve L,

Will SH be standing behind their product and making things right for Sorka (and others) when there is a fix for the I2 issue he mentions? A publicly stated "yes" from a SH/SL employee would probably go a long way if people know that they can be confident that SH will replace switches that are not compatible etc. with their existing installs (either the old or the new devices need to be replaced with devices that work correctly as a system). If you look in all of the forums that mention Insteon he is not the only person waiting on this (Techmall, UDI, Homeseer and here etc). SH shold probably state in their advertising that the newer devices do not work 100% with the older devices until this is fixed so customers are not frustrated with installs that dont work.

And I will confirm that your statement about Matt is correct. He seems to be empowered to say yes to warranty exchanges etc,. where other CS staff just say sorry see the distributor (why not just forward the customer to Matt rather than saying no to a customer and frustrating them until they eventually work their way up the ladder)?. I dont think customers would mind hearing "sorry that type of exchange requires a supervisors handing instead of a "sorry no". Please hold for Matt or please email Matt and he will gladly assist you in your request would be much more customer friendly than making the customer keep calling and complaining till they get a manager."

What about sales from other online distributors and resellers? Will SH replace them directly so that the distributor does not have to eat all of the shipping and handling costs?

Thanks

One major thing that concerns me about the whole "Tact Switch" issue is SH admission in your post.... "The problem was identified as a tact switch other than our spec being placed into production and many switches were produced with this component." That just proves what I said many time that SH has a QC issue (and now it is an admission of "many" not just a "few"). A component that has not been properly qualified should never make it into production (that goes for any manufacturer). Especially at a company that has an ISO registration at the factory as SH claims. While SH/SL may have selected and qualified the correct switch the factory did not use it but substituted a switch that was not acceptable for the application (cheaper or not). If SH/SL does not have sufficient QC systems in place to prevent this then what else can go wrong next?

 

[Digger]

I know I have touched on this a few times before but maybe it will help some that are reading this for the first time. The issue with the tact switch goes back over two years. The problem was identified as a tact switch other than our spec being placed into production and many switches were produced with this component. We have announced many months ago that there is a seven-year warrantee on this problem and we continue to honor that today. Some have mentioned a current problem with the Icon switches. We had a half a dozen people that had failures over a short period and they had a common theme, a diode that was failing. We pulled the balance of the stock and upgraded all of the remaining and current icon switches with a glass diode.
There had not been a change to the design of that switch in years and very little failure reports. I appeared to be power surges that caused the problems and we decided to upgrade the component.
As far as returns for defective devices, I have always seen Smarthome stand behind the product. Where it gets a little confusing is when products are purchased on EBay or by a third party reseller where the orders are not filled through Smarthome. Smarthome sells to Home Depot & Amazon online, and in some Home Depot stores. The online orders are filled through our system and we will have a record of that for the purpose of a return. Companies like Aartech in Canada which we work with very well will take returns and we will replace Aartech. That is the way it is supposed to work. Our arrangement with third party resellers is that they take the return because the customers purchase is in their system and we replace the reseller. Like digger said, Matt has gone the extra mile for people who say that they have product but did not buy it from us or don't have any record of how to look up their purchase.
For over the last two years and closer to three the products have been very stable. This is coming from someone who has installed more of these devices than probably anyone through the bad times and now the good. We have over 70 INSTEON products and coming out with more every day. I will admit it is a challenge sometimes to make sure this process is flawless but from where I sit, we do a good job at it.

There are countless people that have purchased these products and they worked the first time and continue to do that today. There are those that have some unique installs and have had communication problems. I have personally gone to many homes and left with the system working as it should. The feedback I get form these customers has helped to make our products better. I am a license Electrical Contractor, a Home Automation Contractor for many years and currently an employee at Smartlabs the parent company of Smarthome.

Steve L

Please see my post above.

Thanks

 

[SteveL]

I have made the offer on this board and other boards for people to contact me direct so I can help clear up their issues. This is not my job, but I believe in the product and even with my busy schedule I have always tried to make myself available. I am currently an employee at Smartlabs the parent company of Smarthome.

SteveL
As stated in my posts: I am currently an employee at Smartlabs the parent company of Smarthome.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Steve L:

Please place your company's affiliation (Smartlabs) in your signature.

BSR

SECOND REQUEST

 

[aartech]

I've been watching this thread for a considerable amount of time and I have to give SteveL props for sticking his head out and taking it on the chin over and over again, generally from the same group of people on various forums who I'm sure have their reasons for having hard feelings towards the company and/or it's policies or products and are quite vocal about it at tiimes. It's a shame that by the nature of the beast, the people who have functioning systems and are happy, don't tend to post or to lurk around the forums because, well, they're happy I suppose.

I just thought I'd put my 2 cents worth here and say that as a distributor in Canada, AARtech has sold thousands of Insteon switches and overall have been happy with the sales, the return rate, and I've personally been happy using the product in two homes now. I'm sure I was lucky not to have had any of these bad switches because, knock on wood, I've never had to replace one of my own.

As a company, have there been RMAs and replacements? Yes.
Would I be happy with a lower return rate? Sure, but not just with Insteon by the way.
Is the return rate through the roof? Nope.

Since I do sell the product, please take my comments with a grain of salt, but overall I'm a fan.

What about sales from other online distributors and resellers? Will SH replace them directly so that the distributor does not have to eat all of the shipping and handling costs?

With most (not all) manufacturers, product returns/replacements are handled by the reseller as part of the food chain. To me, the cost of shipping defective products to the manufacturer, and back out to the customer is a cost of doing business and I hope it's one of the reasons customers buy from AARtech. Those that don't want to deal with returns could become affiliate marketers instead and save the expense of returns, technical support and inventory overhead.

Those who've had bad experiences have every right to be upset and yes Smarthome could certainly be creating some better PR for themselves here, but I have to comment that they have always looked after any and all problems in a timely fashion both for their channel and for their end user customers at least in my experience and based on comments from customers I've spoken with.

I find that overall, Insteon products have sold well, have made customers happy, and they have an excellent and growing selection of product to fit most customer's needs in a cost effective way. We continue to carry other lines, bands and styles and expand that selection but have a lot of very happy (repeat) Insteon customers.

Just had to say my bit. Please be kind with any posted replies, my skin's not as thick as Steve's

Cheers
Robert

 

[IndyMike]

I've been watching this thread for a considerable amount of time and I have to give SteveL props for sticking his head out and taking it on the chin over and over again, generally from the same group of people on various forums who I'm sure have their reasons for having hard feelings towards the company and/or it's policies or products and are quite vocal about it at tiimes. It's a shame that by the nature of the beast, the people who have functioning systems and are happy, don't tend to post or to lurk around the forums because, well, they're happy I suppose.

I just thought I'd put my 2 cents worth here and say that as a distributor in Canada, AARtech has sold thousands of Insteon switches and overall have been happy with the sales, the return rate, and I've personally been happy using the product in two homes now. I'm sure I was lucky not to have had any of these bad switches because, knock on wood, I've never had to replace one of my own.

Robert,

Thank you for sticking your neck out as well. Your perspective as a distributor is extremely valuable to both current and prospective Insteon customers.

Like you, I've been following SteveL's posts for some time and have marveled at the pounding he is willing to take. From my perspective, he has a wealth of experience both with the Insteon product and it's installation. He attempts to address peoples problems directly and offers personal, direct contact to resolve issues.

Your perspective as both a distributor and an Insteon user goes a long way toward vindicating what Steve has posted and what I believe the "silent majority" of Insteon users believe. Being a satisfied user of the product, it is very nice to hear this from a 3rd party, and one in the position of dealing directly with customers using the product. With all the negative press flowing around here, it's good to get this type of feedback once in awhile.

Hope your (our) beatings aren't too extreme,
IM

 

[MikeB]

Thanks for your input, Robert - your perspective is certainly an important one!

Please place your company's affiliation (Smartlabs) in your signature.

BSR - Any reason why other forum members aren't asked to do the same? I believe SteveL makes it apparent in every post that he works for Smarthome. He has also stated, I believe, that he's not here representing the company in any official manner.

 

[Digger]

I dont see how Robert can get a beating at all. He hasnt done anything wrong (at least not that I have heard). SH on the other hand needs to help those customers in this thread with problems and all other customers. If they keep refusing and/or ignoring the people with problems they are hurting their customers and themselves. Claiming a 2% failure rate and saying it was just a few then months later changing it to many at least shows that Steve is very honest and when he realized it was more than what the company first claimed he told people. I never said he is a bad guy and I am sure he is not. But he chooses to represent SH and he also put it here on the forum not to hold back on his account. SH needs to pressured to do the right thing or Steve would not have to be doing this on his personal time because the company he works for is not doing it.

Wonder if SH ever replaced Lou's defective switches? Will they replace Sorka's? What about anyone else's?

The only way to get SH to do the right thing is to publicly force them. Its a shame how some people in this thread have already had to replace almost all of their switches once and may have to do it a second time because the new ones do not work correctly either. That is a lot of aggravation that is unnecessary if the mfg put out a quality product.

I dont think they are trying to be cheap. I would guess they just dont know how to do it right yet. Part of the problem is that they dont make the products. They subcontract out to a mfg in China who they apparently can not control what they do (Steve said mfg used a switch not spec'd by SH). It would be best if SH had their own factory. Some day maybe they will.

 

[electron]

Thanks for your input, Robert - your perspective is certainly an important one!

Please place your company's affiliation (Smartlabs) in your signature.

BSR - Any reason why other forum members aren't asked to do the same? I believe SteveL makes it apparent in every post that he works for Smarthome. He has also stated, I believe, that he's not here representing the company in any official manner.

Steve has actually refused to include this info in his signature, claiming he is here on his own, not representing SH. Yet he uses words like 'us' and 'we' when talking about Smarthome in his most recent posts. This creates a lot of confusion. I still don't understand why this is such a big deal, but I will leave it up to others to draw their own conclusions, as I really want this thread to stay on topic, which is about INSTEON technology.

Identifying yourself through your signature is one of the few CocoonTech.com rules we have. When you click register, this is what you see in bold and red letters:

If you are a vendor or manufacturer, and wish to make posts, you agree to disclose your affiliation with the company you work for in your signature.

So if you see other manufacturers/vendors posting who didn't identify themselves, please let me know.

 

[Slates]

For what its worth, I am using Insteon and have had no issues at all. I use switchlinc dimmers and relays , keypadlinc dimmers and relays and lamplincs. I haven't branched into the more involved product offerings, but its planned someday! In fact, my only compliant against Insteon is that they don't mass produce custom etched buttons for the more popular labels. To me its a huge market opportunity. Steve has mentioned that they are considering it though, so my fingers are crossed.

When I first bought Insteon I didn't do a whole lot of research. I just wanted to do one thing, and it looked like it was perfect for that use. Once I bought a couple of units I found this forum and others. I quickly found Sloop's posts with his issues, which obviously concerned me. SH definitely made some mistakes in the past, and undoubtedly will make some in the future. Then I see Digger jumping to every forum out there that returns "Insteon" in the search bar and attacking SH constantly. His original posts concerning the problems he had were legit and informative. The blatant attacks of late are pointless in my mind.

Just as I wouldn't jump into any home automation thread that discusses automated lighting and declare "Insteon works for me, everyone should use it", I don't understand his need to jump in and say "Insteon sucks and I had problems with them 2+ years ago". Further, he jumps on any complaint posted and immediately declares SH as guilty of negligence or worse. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but it would be best to get the facts first.. "Those cops acted stupidly" comes to mind.