Motions near keypad and exit/entry doors

[raymondh]

I have lost some faith in the Elk/wireless/NX488 Glass Break combination so I need to move on to other options.

Our house has about 30 windows that open and my wife isn't keen on the idea of a sensor on each window. Also, as these windows are hardly every unlocked we don't see that as a huge risk for a break in. I am now planning to install multiple wireless motion sensors.

I have one upstairs that is set to burglar/interior.

The motion sensors downstairs will need to be in a group that can arm while they are seeing motion since we'll be right next to one when we are arming. They also need to not alarm instantly when I open a door and walk to the keypad but they SHOULD alarm instantly if I throw a rock through a window and crawl in.

If I understand correctly, I need to place these in a group as "Interior Followers" and allow them to be "Forceable". If that right?

Also, in the wireless settings in ELKRP there is a checkbox for PIR. I'm assuming this should be checked too.

 

[CollinR]

You are correct magnetic window switches are about worthless, nobody jimmies the windows they just break them out and crawl through. As such defeating the switch.

You may also be able to use a vent zone type for the motions near keypads, this will allow you to arm while they are closed but once open and armed they become protected.

 

[Steve]

Is it not possible to run ANY wires in your home? With all due respect, wireless PIRs as the primary source of security is not exactly what I would considered a 'good' security system. If you are not concerned much about it then I guess it will be, well, ok, but you always want perimeter coverage as your primary method. A window or door (glass) is either going to be open or broken, so you want to catch that act. That is done either with a contact, glass break, or both. PIRs are good backup security. I'm not even sure it can be configured to trip instantly or delayed like you want. If you make them delayed then a good thief can break in, grab alot of stuff and be gone before the alarm even trips. Your contacts and gb's would be configured to be instant at all times without worrying about it. I would concentrate on getting gb's working first, if you can't do it wirelessly (I don't know why not), consider running wire to them, that is better anyway. Just my $.02

 

[raymondh]

It's a large multi-level home that was just completed. The estimate to have wires run was huge. Can it be done? Yes. Do we want to deal with the mess? Not really. From my research, wireless such as the GE Crystal units are pretty darn good. I would consider this "good" security.

I am working on getting the GB figured out. Unfortunately, I can't get an answer out of Elk or the "Home Security Store" where I purchased them. I've ordered the FG-701 tester to see if that helps but I can't believe that will do much more than what I've already done.

I believe the "Interior Follower" trips instantly if it sees motion without an entry/exit door being violated first. The key will be to have the door violated before the PIR sees the door motion.

 

[CollinR]

Normally yes you would have most motions as an interior follower.

This also makes them disregaurded when armed in a occupied mode. That is the only trouble with the vent zone method, can it also be disregaurded while in stay mode. I'm sure it can but I don't have an Elk to help much more then that.



Also to back up Steve, wired is always superior to wireless.
If you have enough basic PIRs you will get falses, look for true dual technology microwave/PIR combo units. I don't know of a wireless one.


EDIT:

The more I think about it the better off you'll be with interior follower and just waiting a second to arm. That and try not to install them looking directly at the keypads.

 

[hucker]

Aren't magnetic window sensors there to let you know that you have left a window open? It only seems that they are worthless if you define the mode of entry as 'breaking window' rather than 'coming in through window left open in summer time'.

 

[raymondh]

EDIT:

The more I think about it the better off you'll be with interior follower and just waiting a second to arm. That and try not to install them looking directly at the keypads.

I think you can also make them "Forecable" then the panel will arm even if they are "violated" and when they return to normal they will be placed back into normal state and trip the alarm if violated.

Hmm, but if they are set to interior follower they may not have to be force armed since they may be placed on the exit delay. Is there anyone familiar with the Elk that can answer this?

 

[Digger]

It's a large multi-level home that was just completed. The estimate to have wires run was huge. Can it be done? Yes. Do we want to deal with the mess? Not really. From my research, wireless such as the GE Crystal units are pretty darn good. I would consider this "good" security.

I am working on getting the GB figured out. Unfortunately, I can't get an answer out of Elk or the "Home Security Store" where I purchased them. I've ordered the FG-701 tester to see if that helps but I can't believe that will do much more than what I've already done.

I believe the "Interior Follower" trips instantly if it sees motion without an entry/exit door being violated first. The key will be to have the door violated before the PIR sees the door motion.

I know that some brands of Glassbreaks will give a visual indication (led lighting etc) from a clap test method but they do not actually transmit the alarm signal to the panel. Napco and I believe Sentrol work that way. I am not sure about others.

May not answer your question but maybe will help with your discussions with ELK and Home Security Store.

I personally did not go with Glass Breaks. I decided to alarm the windows on the main level/basement of the house and put a few motions in as well. If you can get into my house you cannot get more than 10 feet in the basement or main level (if that) before a motion gets you. The windows and doors are all alarmed except for the second floor so there are basically 2 levels of protection.

You are more likely to have a flood or fire than a burglary statiistically (if I remember what I read correctly) so the motions might be enough where you are located. Dont forget a few flood detectors, smokes and a CO or two might be worthwhile.

 

[Steve]

If you have a basement (since you don't have an attic for first floor) I would think it would be very easy and clean to run a few wires at least for PIRs or GB's. GB's can go on the wall, even low if need be for wiring sake. I would imagine the bill to be huge if you include all windows and doors in a multistory, but I would think at least a few first floor locations would be reasonable. Also, if you had any plans for HA uses for the PIRs, wireless are not ideal as they only trip every 3 minutes to conserve battery. So they will be pretty much security only. Yes, Caddx stuff is supervised every 64 minutes and it is pretty good as wireless goes, but I think almost any pro would agree that a wireless PIR ONLY system is not considered very 'good'. Not trying to be argumentative, just for you to realize it is not ideal for security especially if that is something really important to you.

 

[raymondh]

I know that some brands of Glassbreaks will give a visual indication (led lighting etc) from a clap test method but they do not actually transmit the alarm signal to the panel. Napco and I believe Sentrol work that way. I am not sure about others.

I have a digital recording of a plate glass window being broken. It sounds very good. This is what I tried to get them to alarm with no luck. We'll see how the FG-701 tester does.

May not answer your question but maybe will help with your discussions with ELK and Home Security Store.

I personally did not go with Glass Breaks. I decided to alarm the windows on the main level/basement of the house and put a few motions in as well. If you can get into my house you cannot get more than 10 feet in the basement or main level (if that) before a motion gets you. The windows and doors are all alarmed except for the second floor so there are basically 2 levels of protection.

How do you have the motions setup that are in the areas you would enter/exit?

You are more likely to have a flood or fire than a burglary statiistically (if I remember what I read correctly) so the motions might be enough where you are located. Dont forget a few flood detectors, smokes and a CO or two might be worthwhile.

I agree, I do have fire taken care of but I haven't done flood yet. I need to look into getting power near the main valve so I can set up a shutoff system.

 

[raymondh]

If you have a basement (since you don't have an attic for first floor) I would think it would be very easy and clean to run a few wires at least for PIRs or GB's. GB's can go on the wall, even low if need be for wiring sake. I would imagine the bill to be huge if you include all windows and doors in a multistory, but I would think at least a few first floor locations would be reasonable. Also, if you had any plans for HA uses for the PIRs, wireless are not ideal as they only trip every 3 minutes to conserve battery. So they will be pretty much security only. Yes, Caddx stuff is supervised every 64 minutes and it is pretty good as wireless goes, but I think almost any pro would agree that a wireless PIR ONLY system is not considered very 'good'. Not trying to be argumentative, just for you to realize it is not ideal for security especially if that is something really important to you.

Trust me, wired was my preference! It's a crawl space and both installers I had come over suggested wireless after doing their survey. It had to do with construction material, layout, etc. They can do it but it was expensive and didn't include sheet rock repair and painting.

We've talked about automation and our last house was very automated (homeseer) but we don't really have it in the plans as of yet. I think if we go that route I would go with X10 and a w800. Not great but workable.

Security is important but it's an insurance thing. How much is it worth to protect against the chance of something happening? We're a couple grand into a security system and if they break in while we're away, they'll have 30 seconds to snatch and run. If they get in while we're home, they'll have until I or the wife get downstairs with the 10-gauge. It's all a balance as I see it. We're certainly not fooled into a false sense of security since we understand the weaknesses of the system. Right now the problem is without confidence in the glass breaks, are system isn't worth much to us at the moment.

 

[Steve]

What is the problem with the GB's?

 

[raymondh]

What is the problem with the GB's?

Check my post just a couple down from this one.

 

[Steve]

Sorry, I never look a the the forums, just use 'New posts' and must have missed that. After looking at it all, it looks like it is indeed crystal based and setup according to the doc

Enroll Process - Activate Tamper Switch
Glass Break Transmitter 9
GE part # 60-873-95, or equivalent >OPTIONS - WZnxxx 04 (Option 2) MUST be set to YES

and it looks like the zone config, etc you have right. This probably requires the expertise of David (Spanky) but I think he is out in Hong Kong this week. Nobody knows the Elk receiver like him - it's his baby. Its possibly (not likely, but possible) the Caddx receiver would work. Too bad Home Security Store is not responsive. That's one advantage of AO, they could probably help troubleshoot and try both receivers if need be. I would give Spanky till next week and try him before you just give up on it. I'm sure he's either tested it or knows something else to try.

 

[raymondh]

Sorry, I never look a the the forums, just use 'New posts' and must have missed that. After looking at it all, it looks like it is indeed crystal based and setup according to the doc

Enroll Process - Activate Tamper Switch
Glass Break Transmitter 9
GE part # 60-873-95, or equivalent >OPTIONS - WZnxxx 04 (Option 2) MUST be set to YES

and it looks like the zone config, etc you have right. This probably requires the expertise of David (Spanky) but I think he is out in Hong Kong this week. Nobody knows the Elk receiver like him - it's his baby. Its possibly (not likely, but possible) the Caddx receiver would work. Too bad Home Security Store is not responsive. That's one advantage of AO, they could probably help troubleshoot and try both receivers if need be. I would give Spanky till next week and try him before you just give up on it. I'm sure he's either tested it or knows something else to try.

If AO will trouble shoot this, I'll order another one from them just to get their help...