Mounting Siren *and* speaker?

[IVB]

We had a break-in a few houses away, its on the rise, so I'm going to finally install the Elk siren I bought in '06. I don't think I want to use it as the main speaker output as it'll be damn loud.
 
Question:
1) Has anyone mounted both? If so, how? If you're using an Elk, did you put a speaker on output 1, siren on output 2 as per the manual or something else?
2) What did you put for Burglary duration? I think the default is 10m but that seems long.
 
 

 

[sda]

Speakers, main and kp2 keypad, on the inside from output 1.
 
Elk 150RT siren on the outside, output 2 drives a relay, power from Altronix power supply.
 
Strobe on the outside, output 3 relay, power from Altronix power supply.
Rule driven, 30 minutes.
 
Additional moose screamers on the inside, output 9 (M1RB), power from Altronix power supply.
Rule driven, 15 minutes.
 
I think default burg is 5 minutes.
 
 
I question the useful of an outside siren.   I think I'm going to reduce the time to 1 minute.  
 
The screamers make life miserable for an intruder.   They stay on for 15 minutes in an alarm.  I'm going to add more of them.
 
My theory is that if the alarm goes off the screamers will drive the bad guy out of the house, the siren wails for a minute while he runs away like a little girl.   Very unlikely the popo will get there anytime soon so no need to annoy the neighbors.

 

[drvnbysound]

Question:
1) Has anyone mounted both? If so, how? If you're using an Elk, did you put a speaker on output 1, siren on output 2 as per the manual or something else?

I've had (2) SP12F's behind keypads (OUT1), and a centrally located siren (OUT2). However, with them all being indoors, it was hard to hear the audible messages from the speakers due to the siren doing its own thing. I've since moved them all to OUT1 (swapping the siren for the Elk speaker) and will likely utilize an outdoor siren on OUT2 later - it's toward the bottom of the to-do list...
 

2) What did you put for Burglary duration? I think the default is 10m but that seems long.

No idea there. I didn't change mine from whatever the default is...
 
Personally, I don't care about my neighbors annoyance... I'd rather them be annoyed and at least take a look to see if they see anyone leaving my house. Or even stay on until the cops arrive... which could help them to identify the house - a strobe would be helpful here too.

 

[NeverDie]

Does it really need to be all that loud?  I read your other contemporaneous post (http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/28267-how-to-calculate-how-much-wire-i-need-for-pre-wire/?p=233698) about installing a 120db siren.  You might end up damaging your own hearing during false alarms.
 
I've been assuming (perhaps wrongly)  that the police/security response time is what limits a burglary, not loud sound or worried neighbors.

 

[IVB]

Does it really need to be all that loud?  I read your other contemporaneous post (http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/28267-how-to-calculate-how-much-wire-i-need-for-pre-wire/?p=233698) about installing a 120db siren.  You might end up damaging your own hearing during false alarms.
 
I've been assuming (perhaps wrongly)  that the police/security response time is what limits a burglary, not loud sound or worried neighbors.

Around here, the bad guys know the response time is at least 5 to 15 minutes and are in and out before then. I live in a yuppie part of Oakland with very easy access to the highway so driving them out quickly is key. In a false alarm we can disable within 30 to 60 seconds.

 

[NeverDie]

Around here, the bad guys know the response time is at least 5 to 15 minutes and are in and out before then. I live in a yuppie part of Oakland with very easy access to the highway so driving them out quickly is key. In a false alarm we can disable within 30 to 60 seconds.

FWIW, you might be able to supplement the police with local private security with faster response times, in which case you can post that sign on your lawn as well.  I did that when I lived in LA, using a K9 service.  It's not expensive.  It turns out I never actually used it, not even once, but I didn't feel like I could count on the police arrival time.  There you have gangs, which can be quite sophisticated, with lookouts and such, so they can plunder and still get away in time.
 
I recently looked at the house using Google drive-by, just to see how/if the landscape had changed, and I was amused to see that the present homeowner kept the K9 sign posted exactly where I had planted it.  So, maybe all you need is the sign....
 
Anyhow, if you're hearing goes bad, you won't ever get it back.
 
.

 

[IVB]

Thx. We actually have private security for the neighborhood, not sure if NextAlarm will call both concurrently, I should check.

 

[Del91574]

Does it really need to be all that loud?  I read your other contemporaneous post (http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/28267-how-to-calculate-how-much-wire-i-need-for-pre-wire/?p=233698) about installing a 120db siren.  You might end up damaging your own hearing during false alarms.
 
I've been assuming (perhaps wrongly)  that the police/security response time is what limits a burglary, not loud sound or worried neighbors.

I agree wholeheartedly about the volume, screamers and whole scenario. I really don't see the value added for the effort expended. Smash and grab, possibly make it less attractive for them to stay, but just as easy for the intruder to smash those as they go.
 
I'm usually using speakers on the inside and outside terminals. The volume ramping feature of the M1 is used with a min/max value. The additional volume and SPL allowed by an outdoor sounder generally helps compensate for mounting differences (soffit/vent) and distance. A lot of the properties that I have M1's in have absentee HO's. I do delay the outdoor sounder from the indoor and have done the same using timer relays on the EZ8's and some other panels.
 
Usually, I go with what I always used on other panels, 4-5 min for everything but fire, then timeout. Fire no timeout. Only variable I toss out there is single ring lockout.

 

[IVB]

What's single ring lockout mean?

 

[sda]

Does it really need to be all that loud? 

 
Hell yeah, the louder the better.    The Elk's "intruder alert" message just doesn't cut it.   Make it really uncomfortable and disorienting and unless they're deaf they're not going to hang around.  According to some websites, the average time spent in a house is about 10 minutes.  Cut that time down and you're ahead of the game.
 
I've even thought of cutting the power to the light circuits and having inside strobes to create more distraction.
 
Another thing to consider ... most alarms have a 30-60 second entrance delay and the bad guys know that.  Most burglaries occur with a front door breach.   Knowing that, are you going to use your front door as the primary entrance and give them a head start?   Remote disarm with an app or a fob or something makes a lot of sense.
 
Using rules, you can limit what happens in stay mode, but have all hell break loose in away mode.

 

[Del91574]

I'll just agree to disagree. Working on systems like the M1 and much larger access control systems that control a lot of ancillary functions (bollards,turnstiles, gates, etc). KISS is the way to go.
 
Adds another level of complexity and item to go wrong in addition to adding to the destruction factor on a break in. Maybe you haven't had to see the after effects of a break in and what typically gets damaged, but you'd bet the screamers and strobes would be gone in a couple swoops. Hey, it's your house and effort, but not one I see a great return on.
 
Entrance delay, however, is a valid consideration, as is what points on the system would or should have it. Usually, only your main entrance and one other (say you have an attached garage, you need to provide an entry if power is out). I've almost never seen a case besides a commercial property where 30 seconds is too short of an entrance time (discounting special sensors like OHD's). System design is more important than convenience.
 
However, remember how these systems work, only an interior follower will delay if the delayed point is triggered first. Limit the followers and you limited your delay if your system has appropriate coverage. Once an instant point is tripped, the delay is a moot point. If the concern is a door being forced and cycling the delay time, then put a SA pulsor immediately adjacent to the door. Solves that problem with nothing fancy.

 

[ano]

Too bad you can't use a police siren sound as your siren. Nothing would freak out a would be robber more than a police siren, even if they realize its not really the police.

 

[NeverDie]

Too bad you can't use a police siren sound as your siren. Nothing would freak out a would be robber more than a police siren, even if they realize its not really the police.

Since your house is stationary, is there any reason you couldn't?  

 

[NeverDie]

Thx. We actually have private security for the neighborhood, not sure if NextAlarm will call both concurrently, I should check.

 
When I was in in LA, I was using NextAlarm too.  I had them setup to call both the police and the K9.  I don't know whether they would have called them serially or concurrently.  I hadn't actually thought to ask.  Concurrently would be better, but would it really make much of a difference?  I wouldn't think so, but maybe you're aware of downsides that I'm not.  (?)

 

[video321]

Hell yeah, the louder the better. The Elk's "intruder alert" message just doesn't cut it. Make it really uncomfortable and disorienting and unless they're deaf they're not going to hang around.

I have screamers in the most important areas of my home and they will only activate when the alarm is in away mode.
 

I've even thought of cutting the power to the light circuits and having inside strobes to create more distraction.

I do the opposite and turn all lights on to throw them off considering most burglaries are during the day, and it's also helpful at night with target recognition.