new construction pre-wire

[shnelson]

Typical subject, I know - but after days and days of perusing the forums and studying up on the 'Wiring your new house 101' (awesome guide btw!), I haven't found a suitable answer yet...

My new home is just about finished with the framing stages, and our GC has me scheduled to come in to do low voltage work the 17th-18th. I initially opted to just run cat5e+rg6, but then stumbled onto the possibilities of a home security system (got my eyes on the vista 21ip). I've now got a bundle of 22/2 and 18/4 fpl on the way with some recessed contacts to use for all the doors and windows.

I don't expect to have the security system installed right away, so my goal now is strictly pre-wire. I am looking for suggestions on what to do with the recessed contacts. Is there an efficient way to just stage the wire through the framing and drop a hole through the window after we occupy the house?

I have a fear of the contractor freaking out if I were to pop holes through the window track for the 3/8" recessed contacts, so would prefer to wait to do it until after we close on the home. It seems more logical to do it up front though, as the walls are all open and I have easy access to complete the work quickly.

Has anyone had any experience with this, and is it typically an issue with the contractor or with the inspector? The windows they are installing are 'Thermo Tech LowE maintenance free vinyl".

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Do it before drywall. You will never find the wire once the window is in as you would have to accurately drill blind through the window to match the hole in the stud where the wire resides. Also, in our house, they sprayed around the windows and all open holes in the studs with insulating foam.

This way you can also check your wiring (see my How to Install a Home Security System How-To).

If you really don't want to do this, maybe consider surface mount magnets and sensors and run the wiring in front of where the window frame would be, then make a small hole in the drywall to retrieve the wire after the window is in.

 

[pete_c]

In FL (house #2) I had the GC wiring the house for alarm. Every window, door, 3 keypads, multiple IR sensors. His assumption was that we would utilize the contracted alarm company. We didn't. I know where everything is today but when I asked the alarm company for a wiring diagram they would not provide it to me. The quote for the post construction connecting & panel installation was around $2500. Not sure though what your GC would charge to pre-wire and I believe typically he would sub contract an alarm company to do said work unless he had the resources to do it himself. For the rest of the low voltage (speakers, computer, video etc) the GC let me do it myself. It took about 2 days and much wiring but its in place today and I am using it bit by bit. All of the wiring basically goes to the laundry room closet wall in media cabinets while still having room for wire shelves in front of the panels for a nice aestistically pleasing and non obtrusive installation. I remember though giving him my overlay drawings and him wondering the reasons for so much cabling .....stating something like they didn't do things like this in FL (around 2000-2001). What is kind of funny is that a neighbor did a tear down and built a home for around 1-1.5 million. I had a look at the pre-wiring and low voltage done by the contractor....it was basic and not near what I envisioned for the money spent.

Around the 80's I built a building and asked for the pre-wiring to be done for the alarm company. The GC was great and did it but the local town inspectors were not happy with the resources that the GC was using. The GC ended up having it done at night so that the alarm company resources didn't work with the "union" labor during the day. The building inpector did the final low voltage after this with no real issues.

BTW in the last few weeks looking at some new construction and have noticed that many GC's like to do the low voltage themselves hiring whomever to do it. Mostly what I have seen is not even close to any standards relating to HA. Note these are homes (townhouses and smaller new homes) from about 375 to 600K. Custom homes around 600-800 k are better but none the less very ill concieved for the money being spent.

 

[shnelson]

Thanks for the responses! I was initially going to have my GC take care of all low voltage, but when I asked him to make sure we had two cat5e runs to each room he got a puzzled look on his face and asked if I wanted to do it instead. Given his initial reaction, and knowing the only way to get exactly what I want is to do it myself, I said yes with a big smile on my face . It started with simple cat5e/rg6 in mind, i've now expanded to a complete security system prewire and some basic home audio.

I have some building experience in my past (built a few homes from foundation to finish), but am no means an expert and have forgotten a lot of the specifics.

I'm going to go ahead and install the contact side of the recessed magnets, leaving the terminal end (the side that attaches to the actual window/door) till after we get settled in and I get serious about installing the panel.

Have you guys typically called up your local inspector in the past to make sure what you were doing is kosher? I've been doing my research and will make every effort to ensure my work is exceeding code expectations, I've done everything except nag the inspector so far and I want to avoid getting on their bad side if this isn't something they are normally approached on.

Thanks again!

 

[Neurorad]

Some alarm systems, like the Elk, allow for speakers scattered around the house, for announcements - prewire for those?

Think you'll ever have a distributed audio system? Now's the time to wire, although in 5 years music distribution may be all wireless (with local amplification), or at least via ethernet/LAN - nobody knows.

Any thoughts of an irrigation system? What about doorbell automation (announcement/.wav file plays when button pushed). Will your alarm interface with the garage doors - any thoughts of adding sensors to the garage doors?

Run some catx to to thermostat locations.

Where will you position motion sensors, or glass breaks, if any? Will exterior lighting be tied to the alarm? Do you want advanced control of landscape lighting, on a timer or tied into other automation?

Think you'll ever have a touchscreen, or 2? Where?

So, think about running additional wire for/to:
1. garage doors
2. garage door openers/buttons
3. thermostats
4. in-wall and/or in-ceiling speakers
5. music keypad locations
6. garage for irrigation control
7. keypads locations to control music
8. doorbell(s)

Most of this I came up with from Dan's excellent 101-102-103 Guides, but it doesn't hurt to summarize.

Thinking about a camera for the front door, or around the back of the house?

You can never wire too much - only too little.

 

[shnelson]

All great suggestions - thanks Neurorad!

I was planning on garage door sensors. Probably a couple PIR's & no glass breaks - house is only 1100 sq ft top level & 1000 sq feet basement.

Would you typically just run catx to the garage for an irrigation system? I think thats a good idea, as we're probably looking at putting one in next year.

How difficult is it to tie lights to the alarm system?

 

[opie]

Have you guys typically called up your local inspector in the past to make sure what you were doing is kosher? I've been doing my research and will make every effort to ensure my work is exceeding code expectations, I've done everything except nag the inspector so far and I want to avoid getting on their bad side if this isn't something they are normally approached on.

Thanks again!

It's always a good idea to talk to the Fire Inspector. Many jurisdictions have specific local requirements if your system is going to be monitored for response. For example, many jurisdictions require a Knox Box and may require a strobe to be located above it. Another time I ran into an inspector that required the Home Theater to mute when a Fire Alarm was activated.

Just my 2 cents

Edit: Link

 

[pete_c]

shnelson - Regarding my sprinkler system installation - The system was installed after the house was about 3 years old and post most of the landscaping including the sod.

The company that put mine in put the controller in the garage. The manifold and relays for all 10 zones sit on one side of the home about 5 feet from the wall of a corner of the exterior of the house. It is buried in a burm. The wire cluster goes from this area into the house basement, across the basement and into the garage about 100 feet or so.

While they were putting in the system and while I was watching them asked them to put in a "few" extra PVC tubes for low voltage etc away to the far ends of the property. Think I gave the installers about $100 cash to do this extra stuff and it took them very little time except for a couple of runs under sidewalks.

I ran five CAT5 cables over to the "Rainbird" box in the garage. About a year after the installation and trying to figure out how to "tap" HA into the Rainbird box decided to take it out leaving the shell and replacing the control unit with two Rain8 units. These today connect via the CAT5 cable using RS-232 to my HA box. One of the Cat5 cables I am using for 1-wire sensor near the vicinity. The other one I am using for a network connection in the garage. Initially this was just a plain old wall plate but a few years ago replaced it with a mini combo in the wall POE AP/network connection (these are used for hotels). The 4th CAT5 connection is another RS-232 connection going to an RFID setup. The 5th CAT5 cable is being used for a touch screen right above the Rainbird box.

Will post a couple of pictures of my sprinkler system control box. BTW It would be beneficial to move this from home security to HA under the same title.

Final touch screen is larger and using different application.

 

[signal15]

Is that touchscreen part of the Rain8 system, or is it another product?

 

[pete_c]

The Rain-8 system is connected to the HA server. Its just a bunch of switches which can be controlled via powerline, RS232 or WLAN.

There is an application (plug in) running on the HA server which manages the sprinkler system. A bit more than just turning on and off the sprinklers during certain days or times but rather using the weather and real-time environmental sensors. IE: If its really windy for more than 10 minutes the sprinkler system will shut itself off. If the rain tipping bucket or moisture sensor is on then it shuts off the sprinkler system. The touch screen is just an interface to the HA system (web page). You can if you wanted make it run the sprinkler system on its own autonomous from the rest of the HA system as the touch screen is connected to a PC running Windows XP Pro.

 

[Neurorad]

Pete, that UI is really slick!

What's the PoE used for, in the garage?

 

[shnelson]

I wish your attached images weren't blocked for me at work, I'd really like to see what sounds so cool!

Back on what's keeping me up at night..

I've got all my components delivered, now I'm just counting down the days till I can get in there and start running the wire. I'm scheduled to go in this monday-tuesday, and am a bit concerned about my window and door sensors.

I did not know what windows we were getting until yesterday, when they were actually installed and I got to look at them:
http://www.thermo-techwindows.com/index.ph...2&Itemid=81
(i'll throw up actual pictures when I get home tonight to give a better idea).

The contacts I decided to go with for both windows and doors are recessed style:
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com/honeywell...rchQueryId=6739

I've contacted the window manufacturer, it will not void the warranty if I put a hole in the window track to mount the business end of the contact. It will void the warranty if I were to drill into the window itself for the other recessed contact. They also recommended I use some silicone caulking to make sure the contact in the track doesn't allow leaking into the wall. I'm struggling with how I'm going to close the contact - I'm thinking about going with a surface mount magnet (jb weld?) to use against the window, but I'm not sure if it will allow it to completely close and latch?

It's a pretty standard sliding vinyl window, does anyone have experience with mounting recessed contacts in these? I'm open for suggestions, but would like to work with the product I have on hand it at all possible..

 

[signal15]

If there is a small gap in between the window and the frame where you would need to put the magnet, you could buy some super thin, super strong neodymium magnets from gaussboys.com or one of the other magnet sites, and then just put a dab of epoxy on the back of one to glue to the window side.

Or you could say to hell with the warranty, do it anyway, and then worry about any potential problems as they arise. My buddy put them in his windows after being told they would invalidate the warranty, and they honored the warranty just fine when two of his gas filled panes sprung leaks and fogged up. There's no way it was caused by the magnet hole either, the wooden edges of the windows were at least 2" away from the edge of the glass, and his holes were only about 7/8" deep. They never even mentioned the magnet when he turned them in either.

 

[pete_c]

shnelson - as signal15 mentioned you could install the switch without drilling into the window frame putting the sensor behind the plastic and use very small strong magnets.

I helped a friend wire up his home (he's been building it now for 2 years) and one of his concerns was his family room sliding glass door - and warranty - put the switch under the wood thresold.

Neurorad - POE for little AP that I sometimes use - experiement as I have 3 other AP's in my wired home. Picture attached. Other than the inability to personally update the software it has a nice small footprint - really meant to be used for conference rooms and hotel rooms...bought it a one of the Eh Expo's that I went to..

BTW and relating to windows, name brand and warranties - in my old home (lived in it about 30 yrs) - I had Anderson windows - at around year 15 the glass started to get a wierd discoloration. None of the vapor barriors gave way anytime during the 30 years. Anderson replaced all of my windows in my old home because of this. I was impressed that it took them only two days.
In the subdivision that I live in today I have a "few" neighbors with "generic" glass windows (wood frame) which after 5 years the vapor barriors are starting to leak (foggy windows), frames are becoming warped, windows are falling out of tracks. These are generic locally purchased windows with no warranty and it looks like some of my neighbors will be needing to start replacing windows (going to get a bit costly). In FL went with what the contractor provided - generic - can see it will cost me in the long run.

 

[sbwright]

I wish your attached images weren't blocked for me at work, I'd really like to see what sounds so cool!

Back on what's keeping me up at night..

I've got all my components delivered, now I'm just counting down the days till I can get in there and start running the wire. I'm scheduled to go in this monday-tuesday, and am a bit concerned about my window and door sensors.

I did not know what windows we were getting until yesterday, when they were actually installed and I got to look at them:
http://www.thermo-techwindows.com/index.ph...2&Itemid=81
(i'll throw up actual pictures when I get home tonight to give a better idea).

The contacts I decided to go with for both windows and doors are recessed style:
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com/honeywell...rchQueryId=6739

I've contacted the window manufacturer, it will not void the warranty if I put a hole in the window track to mount the business end of the contact. It will void the warranty if I were to drill into the window itself for the other recessed contact. They also recommended I use some silicone caulking to make sure the contact in the track doesn't allow leaking into the wall. I'm struggling with how I'm going to close the contact - I'm thinking about going with a surface mount magnet (jb weld?) to use against the window, but I'm not sure if it will allow it to completely close and latch?

It's a pretty standard sliding vinyl window, does anyone have experience with mounting recessed contacts in these? I'm open for suggestions, but would like to work with the product I have on hand it at all possible..

You can use what is called an Earth Magnet which are stronger than the normal small magnet, as signal25 indicated most use an epoxy to attach the magnet.

You may want to consider also when you drill the hole for the switch in the track to leave enough room from the end of the window so that you can install 2 magnets, then you can have the window open slightly a few inches(not enough to crawl thru) for air circulation and still alarm the window, as well as alarm it when completely shut.