New construction...wired in or wireless... and occupancy sensors

[twohawks]

Sorry for the confusion... and it has been confusing....
 
(sorry, this post got longer than I anticipated... I hope its more substance than fluff....)
 
1) "No Guarantees" conundrum: "First you stated "Some of the lighting controls manufacturers, like Lutron for instance, lists compatible lighting manufacturers, BUT that does not guarantee certain performance...." which indicates that even with Lutron there are no guarantees things will work as expected even if you use Lutron with compatible cans."
 
While I have seen some specs on "compatibility", in speaking with reps oftentimes they will indicate the compatibility but when asked about dimming to very very low values and flickering and buzzing... they "fall back" to the installation process I mentioned (scripted replies) ...of dimming it down as low as it will practically go, which is usually between 8% to 12% minimums, and then programming the switch to cap off the low value so when dimming below that point the light goes out rather than exhibiting any flaky behavior.  I.E> THAT's what is considered as NORMAL/COMPATIBLE BEHAVIOR in the industry -evidently!!!
 
SO THEREFORE.... unless you get lucky and find someone who supposedly "really knows", in order to solidly affirm the combination you want, I think one needs to actually test to see if you are going to get the performance you actually are after.  For some people the extreme low dimming is not so important, for others it is.  My experience so far indicates that not all (seemingly most) lighting designers, electrical engineers, and/or lighting control consultants are up to speed on these things.  Its new tech.  Its been very frustrating.
 
That said, Lutron does address this on their site, and manufacturers in general are upgrading their gear.  You should call and consult Lutron (or whatever lighting control manufacturer you are considering)  as to what you want and what they may recommend (I tried musing from the data on their site, but my brain turned to jello).  You may be able to find someone to consult with at Lutron who can actually make some solid recommendations, I don't know.
I use Lutron here, but I think this applies to any lighting control manufacturer you may be considering (i.e., calling them and pressing for someone who can make solid recommendations). Its been hit and miss for me -very frustrating. 
 
I hope that clears that particular confusing part up...
 
----------------------
2) "But then you said "Research for the LED tech we have set our sights on indicates Lutron will definitely tackle it, and I mean dimming down to 1%." which indicates that with Lutron can definitely be relied upon to dim down to 1%. What am I missing?"
 
I was able to see specific technology demonstration, in this case using Lutron switches mated with certain manufacturer LED-centric lights and cans at a warehouse (noted below), hence the second comment you quoted.  What's missing is "with who's LED technology"....
 
a) SO I just want to be clear on something here.... many of the lighting control companies are testing and advancing their products to support LED lighting tech, including Lutron, UPB, Leviton, Insteon, Crestron, etc etc... I think they all are actually. 
 
b) I would bet that in some of the demo's I have seen that a good percentage of other manufacturer's lighting controls may likely perform just as well as the Lutron controls did, depending on the switch/can/light combination.
 
c) Your electrician(s) / lighting designer should be able to recommend to you to certain manufacturer's products for consideration.  Those manufacturers should be able to answer questions and possibly direct you to and warehouses where you can see demonstrations.
 
=============================
NOW, THAT ALL SAID...

In order to not cause fixation on any particular manufacturer's products (to be fair, considering my extremely limited experience) I wanted to be sure to cover things in a "general scope" while addressing your questions. This hopefully provides clear direction on a method for investigating options without having any foreknowledge of something that presumably works... like my mentioning Lutron as an example. 
Just because I saw one thing that works, does not mean its the right one for you and/or that there are not a lot of other options out there.
 
Having said that, and I hope this is not frowned on in these forums,... in one case with a client in L.A., I was directed to consider Luxel and Acculux LED tech (lights and cans).  I eventually found myself at an electricians supply warehouse in Culver City (I think its Walter's - I would need to look it up) where they have a showroom demo-ing Acculux with various lighting controls.  I was very impressed, however, I would not recommend to you fixating on my report in this regard -its just one case.  I have three others that are still not sorted yet!  By all mean, go check it out though; however, I strongly advise taking a competent electrician with you - they will ask about things outside your purview, to be sure.
 
===========
3) "Based on your experience, if you were putting in LED lights would you definitely go with Lutron to ensure performance? And what combo gets you that 1% dimming?"
 
Rather than recommending those products or that resource to you, I strongly recommend FIRST contacting the manufacturer(s) of the lighting tech you are primarily in consideration of based on your research trek so far, and see where that leads.  I am certain there are lots of options -- it just takes a bit of rabbit-holing to suss. 
 
=============
LASTLY (well almost)... what I have found is, if you have some explicit/eccentric/stringent/delicate needs with lighting, ....in my opinion it could be a big mistake to try to proceed without a proper Lighting Consultant.  I didn't believe it at first... but for all my knowledge and experience I found myself well out of my depth when trying to tackle the newer LED Lighting tech landscape.  Its a new industry, there are ka-gilliions of products to choose from, not all product are competently manufactured or work with each other, and there are lots of different options to consider.  I did not anticipate such a broad gap from chossing and working with incandescent or even CFL tech.
 
For the more discerning client... a Lighting Consultant should be able to assess options for properly planning and accommodating  your specific wants and needs, and properly accommodate your electricians with plans for the resources and layout that are best suited to your project.
 
###################
I am still wrestling this out with three projects in three different states right now (there's actually 5 projects, but)... it has been a rough ride.  Manufacturers need to step up their game.  The industry is very competitive, but cluelessness  is still fairly rampant.  Oftentimes people give me the scripted replies and do not really understand my questions.  You have to be persistent in finding the more experienced and knowledgeable folk <<==KEY.
 
After wrestling with this for too long I finally found a potential pathway using Lutron, but I am not convinced I am limited to them.  Also, as it turns out it seems I am not going to be able to employ the use of my first chosen LED lighting tech solution either (complicated -so I wont go into it here).  I have deadlines and other factors with the one particular project (not in L.A.) that made me pull the trigger on Lutron for that one, but I am not sorted with the LED tech yet. Available (human) resources in the project locales also affects options and choices.  Sorry, I have no magic bullet for you. I will believe "it works", whatever "it" ends up being, when I see a project in its implementation.
 
Seriously, the best advice may be to... start by either finding a lighting consultant for help, or call your "hopeful-chosen" lighting control manufacturers.
 
--I wish I could be more helpful.--

 

[picta]

You're saying that Lutron can cost 4 times as much as a hardwired system. But when I inquired with one of the installers I was talking to about going with hardwired over Lutorn RadioRa2 he said that the wired Centralite will cost more than the Lutron RadioRa2 and will not perform as well. He said that he recently replaced a Centralite JetStrem with RadioRa2 because the JetStream had constant problems and didn't have the features he wanted. Not sure what JetStream (wireless) has to do with Elegance (hardwired) unless he's just saying Centralite is not a good product in general. Maybe both Elegance and JetStream lack features that Lutron has?

The price comparison I refer to here is based on the cost of hardware only. The installers will mark up the product plus charge you for installation, and there will be a wide range. Most installers will quote you a better price for the product they are familiar with and worse for the competing product they don't have incentives to install. JetStream is an RF product just as RadioRA. Hardwired Centralite Elegance is better than JetStream in terms of features and reliability, but also more expensive. The quality of installation and configuration is very important, if some moron mis-configures a hard-wired system it could become a disaster even compared to X10. You know the old adage: "If you want it done right, do it yourself". You may want to download and read the documents about your chosen system, understand how it works and supervise the install and configuration, this is the best way to get it working to your liking.
 
Re: LEDs. There are hundreds of different LEDs in the market now, and more will be coming. There is no single lighting tech that will be able to optimize dimming for all of them, so the best way to go is to find the LEDs that work with your system, it's easier than the other way around. Lutron makes its own LED fixtures that come with dedicated dimmers, they are great and can dim to low levels but cost north of $1K.

 

[uscpsycho]

--I wish I could be more helpful.--

 
You have been EXTREMELY helpful.
 
I am in L.A. and I am close to Culver City. I would very much appreciate it if you could confirm the showroom where you say the LED demo.
 
I never considered lighting consultant and I cringe at the thought of yet another person to fit into my budget. But based on what you've said it might be money well spent. Do you have someone in Los Angeles that you recommend?
 
Also, your sensitivity to biasing my decisions is appreciated. However, the value of this forum is in the experiences people have had, so please don't hesitate to mention specific things that you found to work well; it is not frowned upon. And please keep us posted on other combinations you find work well! Every person doesn't need to reinvent the wheel. 

 

[uscpsycho]

The price comparison I refer to here is based on the cost of hardware only. The installers will mark up the product plus charge you for installation, and there will be a wide range. Most installers will quote you a better price for the product they are familiar with and worse for the competing product they don't have incentives to install. JetStream is an RF product just as RadioRA. Hardwired Centralite Elegance is better than JetStream in terms of features and reliability, but also more expensive. The quality of installation and configuration is very important, if some moron mis-configures a hard-wired system it could become a disaster even compared to X10. You know the old adage: "If you want it done right, do it yourself". You may want to download and read the documents about your chosen system, understand how it works and supervise the install and configuration, this is the best way to get it working to your liking.
 
Re: LEDs. There are hundreds of different LEDs in the market now, and more will be coming. There is no single lighting tech that will be able to optimize dimming for all of them, so the best way to go is to find the LEDs that work with your system, it's easier than the other way around. Lutron makes its own LED fixtures that come with dedicated dimmers, they are great and can dim to low levels but cost north of $1K.

 
The installer I spoke to said that Centralite doesn't have all the features of Lutron. If I'm comparing Elegance (forget about JetStream) to RadioRa2 is there any proof to this? Is Lutron a more capable system?

 

[picta]

The installer I spoke to said that Centralite doesn't have all the features of Lutron. If I'm comparing Elegance (forget about JetStream) to RadioRa2 is there any proof to this? Is Lutron a more capable system?

 
I cannot speak to what features your installer thinks are missing from the Elegance, but any advanced system will have some set of features that other systems won't have. Both RadioRA and Elegance have features that are not replicated in the other system, so it depends on your preferences. The Lutron system is more of a stand-alone and incorporates some simple automation features, while Centralite is just the lighting and keypads system that can be leveraged by a dedicated automation controller like HAI OmniPro. Lutron offers more components to control their systems, such as tabletop and pico remotes, but if you have a HA controller, you have a much wider choice of control options.

 

[wkearney99]

I never considered lighting consultant and I cringe at the thought of yet another person to fit into my budget

 
I used one for our house and it was WELL worth it.  Several things got rearranged, cans here or there (closer/farther from walls).  Trims changed (throw light onto wall instead of down, etc).  She even caught the fact that the electrician was installing the WRONG BRAND of recessed lighting cans.  He mixed up the jobs, and my trims would not have fit the wrong cans. 
 
There's a lot about bringing light to a space that's more subtle than you might think.  Time of day, available natural light, wall colors, etc, all come into play.
 
Fwiw, we have Lutron Radio RA2 and it's been great.  We don't do a lot of automation rule-based control over the lighting (by choice).  We do have a number of motion sensor and time of day rules being used.  The Lutron dimmers are great, there's a ton of color choices for them, if your decorating needs it.  We went with plain white as that works for us.
 
We deliberately avoided the LED mess, for now.  I figure it'll sort itself out even more over the next few years, and I'll buy replacements then.  

 

[twohawks]

You have been EXTREMELY helpful.
 
I am in L.A. and I am close to Culver City. I would very much appreciate it if you could confirm the showroom where you say the LED demo.
 
I never considered lighting consultant and I cringe at the thought of yet another person to fit into my budget. But based on what you've said it might be money well spent. Do you have someone in Los Angeles that you recommend?
 
Also, your sensitivity to biasing my decisions is appreciated. However, the value of this forum is in the experiences people have had, so please don't hesitate to mention specific things that you found to work well; it is not frowned upon. And please keep us posted on other combinations you find work well! Every person doesn't need to reinvent the wheel. 

 
Sorry, I have been up to my eyeballs in aligators...
Just as quickie here...
 
First, wkearney99 is right... there's way more to it than you may think, and a lighting consultant has real value (invaluable) if you are going to modernized lighting tech.
 
For the tech resources, as mentioned, I went to Walter's Wholesale Electric in Culver City with our electrical engineer (ee).  The ee told me we needed a lighting consultant to dial it in, but the tech resource at Walter's is happening, and will cost you less than that high-priced Lutron quote you will likely get if/when you consult them.  (I just got one from them today for a project in Boulder... starting at $550 a can --I don't think so.
 
We dealt with Kurt at Walter's.  Perhaps he can recommend a lighting consultant for you?  They are very professional over there.
 
Hope this helps.  Keep us posted.
 
 
 
 
 

 

 

[uscpsycho]

Going a little off topic here but is lighting consultation something interior designers do? A designer that I'm considering said that lighting is something he does. I wouldn't have thought twice about that claim if it wasn't for this thread. I assume there are other that say they can do this too. Since I've never heard of lighting consultation 
 
Since lighting consultation is something I've never heard of I wonder if a designer can do it (as claimed) or if it is so specialized I only a dedicated consultant can do it well? Thoughts?
 
And and if I hire one, what what should I expect to pay a lighting consultant?

 

[picta]

You can also buy a book about lighting design and do it yourself

 

[wkearney99]

You can also buy a book about lighting design and do it yourself

 
Yeah, "you can".  You can buy books about a lot of stuff.  But there's really something to be said for finding someone that's been to the rodeo a few times and knows the little things that can turn into big problems. I have a habit (some might say bad) of spinning up near masters-level understanding of stuff.  I really get over-immersed in all the details.  Enough that I often know quite a lot more than local professionals do about their products (which, sadly, isn't always all that hard to do).  With lighting and decorating I have found it has been very helpful to pay for advice.
 
I generally pay hourly.  It'll vary by region, some places are more expensive than others.  Around here it's typical to pay $50-100/hour for stuff like this.  I'm fine with that as I'm willing to pay to pick their brains... and I do.  But I make it clear that I'm aiming to get my situation sorted out, not try to leech into being a competitor.   The tricky part is finding someone whose personality will mix well with mine and the project.  Personally, I can't stand the prima donna decorator types.  Give me down to earth, tell me my taste is awful sort of folks and I'm happy.  Don't try to deliver "their vision".  Take my rough ideas and mold them into something that isn't hideous.  I've reached this point of view after years of alternatives and unsatisfactory results.  I don't have the specific numbers but I think I managed to spend around $300 with the lighting consultant.  This was on-site time.  I also bought a number of lighting fixtures from them, but that wasn't part of the deal.  I bought a lot of other fixture elsewhere (some as part of the house's construction budget).

 

[uscpsycho]

Yeah, "you can".  You can buy books about a lot of stuff.  But there's really something to be said for finding someone that's been to the rodeo a few times and knows the little things that can turn into big problems. I have a habit (some might say bad) of spinning up near masters-level understanding of stuff.  I really get over-immersed in all the details.  Enough that I often know quite a lot more than local professionals do about their products (which, sadly, isn't always all that hard to do).  With lighting and decorating I have found it has been very helpful to pay for advice.
 
I generally pay hourly.  It'll vary by region, some places are more expensive than others.  Around here it's typical to pay $50-100/hour for stuff like this.  I'm fine with that as I'm willing to pay to pick their brains... and I do.  But I make it clear that I'm aiming to get my situation sorted out, not try to leech into being a competitor.   The tricky part is finding someone whose personality will mix well with mine and the project.  Personally, I can't stand the prima donna decorator types.  Give me down to earth, tell me my taste is awful sort of folks and I'm happy.  Don't try to deliver "their vision".  Take my rough ideas and mold them into something that isn't hideous.  I've reached this point of view after years of alternatives and unsatisfactory results.  I don't have the specific numbers but I think I managed to spend around $300 with the lighting consultant.  This was on-site time.  I also bought a number of lighting fixtures from them, but that wasn't part of the deal.  I bought a lot of other fixture elsewhere (some as part of the house's construction budget).

 
Thanks. I can totally relate to getting over-immersed in the details (as you can tell) and feeling like I know more than the "pros" at times. 
 
$300 seems well worth it. Is that for an entire house? Did they work with your contractor at all? Is the final product just advice or some kind of lighting plan for the electrician/contractor?

 

[wkearney99]

That was for the whole house.  We'd already done most of the lighting with the architect during the initial design of the house.  We did no planning with the contractors, they were great but they were being paid to build what the architect put in the plans.  I'm good at making 'effective' use of consulting time.  I had some specific "what should we consider here" kinds of questions.  Then we did walk-throughs of the whole place (during the rough framing stage).  This led to moving a few things around, usually because of sunlight exposure, but also wall box positions based on how lighting would actually get used.  This included changing the number of switch positions in a few boxes, to better accommodate keypads in addition to paddle dimmers.  The end result was a two-page summary from the consultant, that I then took back to the architect and he issued a change-order to the contractors.  Since we were in the rough framing stage this did not result in any monetary changes to the budget.  Mainly because it was just moving the same number of fixtures to some slightly different locations and a couple of larger wall switch boxes.  Nothing budget-busting.  We were on the hook for purchasing our own lighting fixtures anyway.  
 
We still haven't put in some of our final fixtures as we still haven't finalized the decorating.  There's some furniture coming this summer and that will accelerate some rug and wall decorating.  Same thing with a dining room table and the $6k fixture we're considering above it.  The main stair light, well, Bocci lighting at $20k was a bit steep for the construction project.  Meanwhile it looks like the price has dropped, to only $16k now!  Whatabargain!

 

[twohawks]

Going a little off topic here but is lighting consultation something interior designers do? A designer that I'm considering said that lighting is something he does. I wouldn't have thought twice about that claim if it wasn't for this thread. I assume there are other that say they can do this too. Since I've never heard of lighting consultation 
 
Since lighting consultation is something I've never heard of I wonder if a designer can do it (as claimed) or if it is so specialized I only a dedicated consultant can do it well? Thoughts?
 
And and if I hire one, what what should I expect to pay a lighting consultant?

 
You need to judge competence based on interaction with the consultant. If lighting is something someone does, then ask them questions about LED tech, etc, and weigh for yourself.
 
I finally hooked up with a lighting consultant in Boulder who seems a really sharp and knowledgable professional --no question about it.  I found her through a countertop illumination contractor we are using... all their countertops are high-end and this dude knows his sh-t about led tech. 
 
Here's the bottomeline in my opinion... someone who is skilled in lighting consulting knows the competent electrical contractors in your district, understands their business, knows a bit of their technical skills, needs, how they handle jobs, etc...  I.E., a lighting consultant knows about electical and lighting 'tech' and 'industry requirements'... so I doubt your every-day interior designer wears this hat, but then some of us wear more than one hat due to varied training and experience ;^)
 
Just my 2-sense.

 

[uscpsycho]

Yeah, "you can".  You can buy books about a lot of stuff.  But there's really something to be said for finding someone that's been to the rodeo a few times and knows the little things that can turn into big problems. I have a habit (some might say bad) of spinning up near masters-level understanding of stuff.  I really get over-immersed in all the details.  Enough that I often know quite a lot more than local professionals do about their products (which, sadly, isn't always all that hard to do).  With lighting and decorating I have found it has been very helpful to pay for advice.
 
I generally pay hourly.  It'll vary by region, some places are more expensive than others.  Around here it's typical to pay $50-100/hour for stuff like this.  I'm fine with that as I'm willing to pay to pick their brains... and I do.  But I make it clear that I'm aiming to get my situation sorted out, not try to leech into being a competitor.   The tricky part is finding someone whose personality will mix well with mine and the project.  Personally, I can't stand the prima donna decorator types.  Give me down to earth, tell me my taste is awful sort of folks and I'm happy.  Don't try to deliver "their vision".  Take my rough ideas and mold them into something that isn't hideous.  I've reached this point of view after years of alternatives and unsatisfactory results.  I don't have the specific numbers but I think I managed to spend around $300 with the lighting consultant.  This was on-site time.  I also bought a number of lighting fixtures from them, but that wasn't part of the deal.  I bought a lot of other fixture elsewhere (some as part of the house's construction budget).

 
I've been in touch with a few lighting consultants now and I can't find anyone who will touch a project for $300. I've received quotes from $1.00-$2.50 per sqft.

 

[uscpsycho]

Sorry, I have been up to my eyeballs in aligators...
Just as quickie here...
 
First, wkearney99 is right... there's way more to it than you may think, and a lighting consultant has real value (invaluable) if you are going to modernized lighting tech.
 
For the tech resources, as mentioned, I went to Walter's Wholesale Electric in Culver City with our electrical engineer (ee).  The ee told me we needed a lighting consultant to dial it in, but the tech resource at Walter's is happening, and will cost you less than that high-priced Lutron quote you will likely get if/when you consult them.  (I just got one from them today for a project in Boulder... starting at $550 a can --I don't think so.
 
We dealt with Kurt at Walter's.  Perhaps he can recommend a lighting consultant for you?  They are very professional over there.
 
Hope this helps.  Keep us posted.
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
I met with Kurt at Walters. He was very nice but was stumped as to what LED would dim down to 1% with Lutron. He said he would research it and get back to me. He also said he might know a lighting consultant (might?) and send me a referral. Been a week now and I haven't heard back from him.
 
He did recommend Juno LEDs but those cut out around 10% which he said is good and normal because you rarely want to set your lights below 10% anyway.