New member with a big project

[johns351c]

I am a new member that is very new to the whole HA idea. I have been reading for about 30 hr's over the last week mostly on this site. I think this will be a very usefull site with my project. I first got interested in the HA idea after visiting a customer of mine that had a very nice system in his house. I have company that done mostly custom wheels and other metal fabrication for offroad vehicles. I am not very up on computers and any forms of programming though so I know this is going to be a chalange.
I am building a house for me and my family. I am a very do it yourself type of person and am actually building about 99% of the house my self. this includes all the wiring. the house is a 5000 aq. ft. three level house.
I am building right in the middle of town. It is a small town with about 2-3'000 people in the winter and 20-30,000 in the summer. It is a vaction town with a nice lake and campgrounds.
i am not real concerned with security as we never even lock our doors around here at night, but the house is facing the main beach entrance and is next to a nice bar and straight across from the only gas station in town.

We are building a log house which i hope to start laying logs in a few weeks and as you may know you have to wire the house as you build it in a log house.
So this is why i am here and how I came to this site.
I know each system has its advantages and disadvantages and each system is differant.
Like I said I am very green to the HA systems and have never seen what is all involved in a big system.
Here are some of the things I think I would like to take into consideration when figuring what system is best for me.
Having read a ton on here I really liked Jwilsons setup.
I will be hard wiring most everything.
I like the idea of being able to reprogram switch functions.
I dont mind having a dedicated Pc for this system.
I have a aprox. budget of 20K for this but I am hoping to use some ofhat for audio and video componants
Also I am not planning on buying everything at once. this house is goingto take a couple years to complete and I would prefer to buy as needed what i can, I just want to plan and prewire for as much as I can.

Some of the features I would like are,
light and pump control for wifes garden ponds,
obvoisly a decent amount of lighting control, indoor and outdoor
three main areas of home theater systems.
perhaps 2-4 cameras someday.
I would like to view the cameras from my office at work a couple miles away.
driveway sensors to know when someone pulls in and if the 2 year old start walking towards the highway,
bells, for door, and minor and major alarms.
certain door and window sensors.
Electric window and blinds
a whole house audio system
I would like 4-5 touch screens that can be used for I tunes throughout the house as well as other functions.
What ever system we use needs to be very reliable and easy to use.
My wife insists on still having certain normal switches to control certain light functions which is fine for me.


based on what I have read on the site so far I am thinking I would get,
Girder 5 Pro and NetRemote Whole Home Pro Bundle.
some 15 ELO touch screens from e-bay
the ELK M1 system
multiple recievers like Jwilson did
But keep in mind I still have no idea what is all needed to make things work right
I still dont know all the places to know for buying the switches, wiring and relays and other hardware needed.

I know this is a lot of info (at least seams to me)
and I apreciate anyone who has taken the time to read it
I am just looking for any help in getting this system right the first time
Noone around here that I know has anything like this.

Again thanks for reading and any help or comments is greatly apreciated,
John

 

[GraysonPeddie]

If you're going with Insteon for lighting, why not toggle switches from SmartHome?
http://www.smarthome.com/2466dw.html

Maybe your wife would like to take a look at that as it's similar to a normal light switch.

 

[Steve]

Hi John,

Welcome to CocoonTech. Sounds like you have a fun few years on your hands. If what you say is true about a log home, then yes, you want to get the wiring done as accurately as possible (that actually applies to a regular home prewire as well). You may want to consider conduit if possible wherever you can hide it to make additional wire runs later if needed.

I imagine you already saw the CT Wiring Guide. I would certainly start with that. I honestly would not focus at all on software right now and not even too much on the controller. There are certain to be upgraded or different devices in a few years. I would focus effort on the wiring and infrastructure you will need. A panel is a panel, meaning you still need to run your security and automation sensor wiring to the panel location, regardless of what panel you go with. The big decision you have right now is lighting - hardwire or 'retrofit'. With a small budget to do everything, a pure hardwire system like Centralite may be out of reach, but I would certainly consider even a small 24 load system at least for all your critical locations. Why - because hardwire will always be the most reliable. Next I would consider something like ALC where the house is wired normally but you juts run Cat5 control wires. Last would be a typical RF or PLC system - x10, Insteon, UPB, Zwave, Radio RA, etc. If you go that route, they all all retrofittable, just make sure you have a neutral in all switch locations. Personally, I like distributed audio system like Nuvo or Russound - they are just simpler and easier and usually more 'integrateable'. JohnW's system works great but I think even he would agree a Nuvo or Russound would be easier if you had the budget. Even a nice new Nuvo Essentia would work great.

As far as a supplier, I would recommend Automated Outlet. I'm sure you've seen MArtin and Brandon here on the forums. They can help you with design and have great prices and service.

That should give you a little more to chew on as you work throgh things - good luck.

 

[upstatemike]

If you are going with individual sound systems in each room then you might want to consider networked Squeezebox music players from Logitech for access to your central music repository.

Also, nothing sets off a new log home like an escalator. You could be the envy of your whole town!

 

[ginigma]

Hmmmm, second escalator mention. Someone must really want an escalator for Xmas!

 

[roussell]

Welcome to Cocoontech Stazworks. I second everything Steve mentioned. Worry about building in the infrastructure now and the software later. Speaking of software, NR looks to be nice now and I like what Jwilson has done with it. I could never get it to work just right during a trial, so I stayed with Housebot.

Best of luck to you, be sure to post your progress!

BTW, Upstatemike, Your latest escalator comment made me spray Diet Pepsi on my keyboard <_< Thanks...

Terry

 

[GraysonPeddie]

BTW, Upstatemike, Your latest escalator comment made me spray Diet Pepsi on my keyboard <_< Thanks...

Terry

Perhaps you can use:

(Taken from 3DGameMan.com)

 

[CollinR]

Welcome to the board John!

Will trade!
I want some sweet axles however can't afford them. <_< Kinda stuck at the next level going to a real wheel/tire combination and working backwards, I would like the 46" XMLs and rockwells. Err actually thats what might actually be possible for me afford someday.

Oh and you'll need 5-6 miles of wire, thats your biggest concern right now. Where can you get wires now and how you can best futureproof the house from a technology point of view. This way you have more options later on when you are buying the stuff. It's inevitable whats cool today won't be forever.

 

[jwilson56]

Welcome to Cocoontech. I am sure you will find tons of information to help you in your project. As for what equipment you use for a whole house audio system it depends on your budget. Like others have said, if I could afford to buy a high end multizone system I would have taken a closer look at that. But then again when I first setup mine with 5 zones there were not many choices out there.

I would start by figuring how many distinct zones you want. This will determine what sound card(s) you will use for your source (assuming your going with a HD solution). I have 6 zones right now using a Delta 410 PCI card along with a couple Xitel HIFI USB devices (one is the PRO version that supports TOS, SPID and RCA all at the same time). A distinct zone can play a separate track from any CD and therefore must have its own source and amp). If you look at the higher end multizone preamps and amps some allow for great versatility when it comes to switching sources.

Also another thing that was not available when I did mine was satellite radio. So you might want to consider that as well. I use the 6 integrated tuners in my receivers to play preset stations in my area.

As for Netremote/Girder 5 I will have to say that there is a learning curve for sure. But its like anything else. It certainly is one of the cheaper solutions and it has great power, flexibility and speed. I like how well its integrated into JRMC which IMHO is one of the best multizone database/players out.

Now Playing (recently upgraded to 1024X768) is centered around music for sure. I have over 800+ CD's ripped using a lossless format (I for one don't think that MP3 quality is good enough for use in the house and I have A/B'd it to prove that). I also come from the generation that loves high quality (and sometimes loud) music so some of the 'elevator' quality background music solutions just was not going to cut it for me. Each of the 6 zones has 100+ watts RMS per channel. Plenty of dynamic range and headroom for any music genre. I also like the fact that I can switch on and off the receiver for any zone. This keeps the unused zones from wasting power.

As for lighting.... to me thats a trivial thing. Read up and pick the right protocol and then make sure whatever software you pick has support for it.

As for video.... I keep that separate from my Now Playing project. Personally ripping all your DVD's to hard drive is more of an ego thing (please don't flame me its just my opinion) and with the rise of Bluray its kinda short sited anyways. As often as I watch a movie I prefer to just sneaker net the disc to the player. I do however live by time slipping my TV shows (I bought a Tivo when they first came out). Right now I use MCE2005 with a couple extenders. I am looking into migrating to SAGETV and their HD extenders down the road.

I see no need to integrate the video with the music library. If I am watching TV I much prefer the tactile feel of a remote in my hand. I use a Harmony 880 which is pretty powerful and with a single push of an 'activity' it will turn everything on and set it all to the right inputs. This comes in handy for the wife. If you want to rip all your DVD's to HD and use a GUI frontend I would certainly look to CQC or Mainlobby suite as I am not sure how well supported a DVD database is in NR. Thats not to say it won't but I could not vouch for its functionality.


By the way there is an awesome Elk plugin written by harleydude I am testing right now. He is taking suggestions for it but so far it works well and does quite a lot.




Have fun!!

 

[twilo123]

a lot of what you are asking for can be handled in a remote control via rf/ir. all of the a/v stuff for instance..i know the harmony 880 was mentioned. i use the 890 line and the w1000 along with the pronto 9400 and they all work well for the a/v side and ir control. this would include wireless lighting, window shade control, etc. i have even done t.v. pop up lifts on these remotes. the pronto's have specific 2way feedback and metadata for audio/video, not just say lighting feedback on the harmony 890 for z-wave. you can either use some kind of ir passthrough to your components or rf control depending on your situation and tastes.

for video, you may want a disc changer and an escient system. it is the cheapest way to go other than ripping and using say windows media center. although now that they are pushing the vision line and the changers they use are not being made anymore you will probably need to get them while they last. on the bluray side, slysoft is already putting out a bluray ripping software if that is your goal. if you have ripped movies be careful with the windows media center. on the media center itself you will not have any problems with the right processor, ram, and codecs however if you intend on streaming it to extenders like the xbox360 you will be sol unless you do some workarounds which are a pain. on the other side, many companies are selling cablecard ready boxes for windows media center so you can watch/record multiples streams at one time around the home. also, there are some automation software for windows media center like lifeware and mcontrol. netflix has a plugin for it now. there are weather plugins, and others like most of the other all in one ha solutions on the market. lifeware actually integrates with russound for multiroom audio and mcontrol is now pushing their own touchscreen with some 'basic' audio sound/control.

squeezecenter is a good plugin for audio also. someone has made a plugin for the pronto 9400 also in which you get feedback and metadata.

i can't say enough for cat5e. run as much as you can. preferably at least 2 runs in every major room of your home. leave some kind of conduit in hard to reach areas for future concerns.

lutron makes excellent lighting controls or if you want to go wireless i like zwave so far even though there are caveats to that tech also. z-wave does a 30amp module for spa on/off which may work for the pumps. also, intermatic has a z-wave pool heating integration unit which may be useful.

most cameras are viewable via web page these days. panasonic makes some good ip cameras. hawking is doing something via crayon interface with motion jpeg on cell phones. nuvico and everfocus make some good dvr/cam cctv systems with remote web page viewing/control. they usually use vga outputs but many lcd hdtv's today have the input. just program the remote with the proper actions for the activity and hit one button on the remote to switch to the view.

alarm to ha integration - possibly elk or hai depending on the technology you are using. otherwise many ha software integrate with the major players, honeywell, ademco, dsc, etc. lifeware and mcontrol do both i believe.

russound has a doorbell intercom solution which integrates with their mutliroom audio systems.

your touchscreens could be umpc's also besides the regular inwall type. again depends on the technology you are using and are trying to connect/control and how you want to control it.

 

[SnyperBob]

Post pictures, lotsa pictures! I love log homes

 

[johns351c]

I am stunned at all the suport. Thanks.
Further more I am lost with most of the terms mentioned and since I have no idea as what many of the products mentioned and brands are I am still strugling. But asi learn these things I am sure i will be going back and reading this again. I have actually read through it several time already to try and get a grasp.

One thing that I am shoked about is that 20'000$ is considered not much of a budget. How much do these types of systems end up costing and where is the major expense put?
If I can't get something prety cool for 20G I may just want to resort back to a conventional system.

I started reading the house wiring 101 mentioned above and understood most of it.
If I got it right I need a central location to install all the wall wart asI think it was called which is just a mess of componants correct?

I think I should just start posting some pics of the floor plan. this may help you guys take a look at what I am really doing and help me figure what is actually needed in each room. I will do that from work later today.

In a HA system do you guys wire every room special or do you resort to the old fashion way for certain rooms such as storage rooms and downstairs bathrooms and spar bedrooms.

If 20G is a small budget I will have to start setting my priorities and pehaps plan for future things but for the most part disreguard them for now.

One thing I should mention is that although this project will take several years to complete I still plan to move in this summer/fall. I have the whole family living with my parents right now and living in a unfinished house would be a big improvment from this.

After reading coments I should also mention that I am not into Video games so if we have one anything beyond traditional hook is not needed.
Also as far as movies are concerned I dont watch the same movie more than a couple times usually so for ripping DVD's or having big DVD changers is not needed. I simple single or minimal multiple disk changer would be fine. And putting them at each TV location is not a big concern.
I dont need the kids knowing what porn is in the DVD player in the master bedroom.

I guess I should say that audio is the biggest concern and second is lighting then security, then video.

I would just like to be able to have a party some day and crank the music throughout the house as required!
I would like simple speakers for most of house but in the living room and the basement I would like bigger sound with subs and such. I would like to be able to control the speaker volumn in 3-5 areas and audio inputs in probably 3-4 areas.
I supose they go hand in hand so if you can control the input from one location you can just as easily control the volumn.

Is it common to have a control outside? or do you just put speakers outside with say a remote that can be taken outside to do what you want? I think just a remote with a good range (100-150ft. would be great)
Where do you comonly mount speakers outside? Under the eves? out in the yard or it really doesn't matter?

Where can I find info on "pure hardwire system like Centralite"? I dont want to cut corners as I just want to do this project once. So if I have to hold off on something to get the good stuff now I will do it.
Again making sure the system is #1 reliable and #2 easy is the big idea.

I was going through last night and trying to figure all the electrical locations at least on the main floor (log walls) and just got frustrated and gave up.

What things would you guys recomend for security on exterior walls?
I think I can put the bulk of my HA wiring in the interior walls so it is turning out to not be as big of a deal right now as I thought. But my big concern i think is any sensors or electric locks that I may want to have on windows and doors.
How far are most people going with this. remember it is a very low crime rate area.
I am thinking just the 29$ electric door strikers for the 5 accesable doors.
I am also thinking some glass breaking sensors and either sensors or strikers for the accesable windows. Maybe just a couple glass break/motion sensors that can be used on multiple windows.
Any sugestions?
This is one of the things I need figured out soon.

John