New Z-wave controller

[Deane Johnson]

I know Dean but...this sounds so stupid but is a huge deal....
 
My wife and I like saying "Alexa...turn on the Desk light."
Adding any additional phrasing in between, such as ...tell house... or anything else breaks the natural fluidity of voice control.  the reason she like sit (and I agree), is all we need to remember is Alexa's name.  Not how to say it or in what order.
 
I know HS is looking into integrating with Alexa at that level, you should touch base with Amazon and do the same.
 
Didn't mean to hijack the thread....sorry about that JimMurphy

Amen!  I don't think this can be emphasized enough.  With experience, I have discovered the Echo I have in the bedroom that does everything at the first level gets used multiple times daily.  The Echo in the living room, which works through CQC, never gets used.  Partially because it's too big a hassle to remember the exact phrasing necessary, and perhaps more importantly, it's too much for Alexa to get straight.  More chances to miss understand the command.  About 75% more chances.
 
Knowing what's technically practical is beyond my pay grade.  Perhaps this does need it's own thread.

 

[Dean Roddey]

I cannot understand how it would be possible to have a product like CQC avoid using the extra verbiage. The only way I can see it would be to be able to configure the Echo to use a specific skill only. I recommended that to the Echo folks but probably it will be ignored. That one simple thing would make it trivial to dedicate the Echo to an application like CQC. You couldn't use any of the other stuff, or perhaps you'd have to use the extra verbiage to access those. It seems to me to be a no-brainer to allow this and it can't be very hard. It would just require a configuration option, and the Echo would just, if no specific skill is addressed, pass along the default skill that was configured.
 
Yeh, I can understand that, if your particular application had a very specific syntax that would not clash with other stuff it would be possible, but that's never going to be the case with an automation system, which needs to be able to support very generic operations of multiple types.
 
Honestly, I may just start exploring the Kinect, since it doesn't have these limitations and it's all local and requires no complex setup on the user's part.

 

[wkearney99]

Reach out to Amazon and ask.  Clearly they're doing it for certain products.  I'd imagine they've gotten a lot of those kinds of requests, but I'd think a developer with an established product ought to be able to get some traction.
 
As for wording, meh, we don't actually 'turn' lights on anymore (gas valves) nor dial the (rotary pulse) phone.  Both are commonly used but neither is all that old.  
 
The trick will be in having a good app name that lends itself to being invoked.  What works for a product name doesn't necessarily work in that situation. 

 

[jkmonroe]

some BIG products are getting that treatment (Wink, SmartThings, Hue, Insteon Hub), but the Skills all require the keyword, even HomeSeer.

 

[pete_c]

Relating to Homeseer and way before HST decided on a Homeseer plugin there were already 2-3 3rd party Homeseer Amazon Echo plugins being developed and looked at. 
 
Well too it was all over the internet before the Amazon Echo was being sold to the public. 
 
Sort of teasers of what was coming.
 
The two Homesser 3rd party plugins I write about were developed by a Microsoft software development  Obi Wan. 
 
Guessing that is why the two plugins work so well together.  (Kinect and Alexa).  I did help him a bit with his beta testing.   He has much fire in him and magical programming fingers that direct connect to his noggin.
 
Here I just wanted it to work on a satellite mini atom baytrail computer connected to a Kinect and multiouch screen and most of all to run on my Linux Ubuntu box which it did remotely.  Really it was just watching debug consoles as I played as this was the first time he was able to test in Linux and I do want everything to run on my Ubuntu box lately.

 

[ChrisCicc]

I cannot understand how it would be possible to have a product like CQC avoid using the extra verbiage. 
 
Honestly, I may just start exploring the Kinect, since it doesn't have these limitations and it's all local and requires no complex setup on the user's part.

 
There is a first party SDK, and the public SDK. The first party SDK has nice features like local discovery. 
 

Honestly, I may just start exploring the Kinect, since it doesn't have these limitations and it's all local and requires no complex setup on the user's part.

 
I'd be happy about chatting with you about making CastleOS your voice provider... 

 

[Dean Roddey]

The trick will be in having a good app name that lends itself to being invoked.  What works for a product name doesn't necessarily work in that situation. 

 
In the current setup you can use whatever you want. If the higher tier still requires a keyword, it wouldn't be really much of an improvement I don't think. It might even mean a fixed keyword, whereas now folks can use whatever they want.

 

[JimMurphy]

Hi Pete,
 
I just bought a few switched plugs, Aeon multi-sensors and Fibaro switches for my UK home.  I just used the Aeotec stick as the controller and I also had a Duwi remote control.  I wasn't doing anything complicated - just having table lamps coming on automatically at dusk and switching on the bathroom light etc automatically. 
 
I moved from the UK to South Africa in 2011 for family reasons, which meant we suddenly found ourselves going from a small 86sqm house with a single bathroom to something over 200sqm with 3 bathrooms in the main house and a separate 50sqm area (currently the old double garage that was converted to an office, a servants bedroom, laundry and shower room) that can be converted into a 1 bed flat.  The simple Aeotec stick and Duwi remote was too basic if I wanted to include automation in the SA house.  I haven't put anything in the SA house except a sensor light so our twins can find the bathroom during the night.  I had been reading up on the various Vera and Fibaro controllers, but none seemed to be 100% right for my needs.  The Vera was cheap but didn't seem to have a good UI and the Fibaro was more powerful with a better UI but was expensive.  I was about to start playing with a Raspberry Pi with a RaZberry module when I found out about Oomi.  I was subscribed to Aeon and they sent me an email giving me a heads-up about Oomi being a new partner company of theirs.
 
So I haven't really had an opportunity to play with any Z-wave controllers, as I would need to purchase them and was wanting to get something that offered good value for money.  The Oomi offering seemed to give a lot of features for the price.  On the Oomi purchaser's page there is a guy who plans to ditch his Fibaro Homecenter 2 and replace it with the Oomi system.  The big draw for me is it should be "wife-friendly" as things can be controlled from a 7" android touch-screen device, rather than logging onto the controller using a laptop or tablet via wi-fi.
 
The good thing about Z-wave is it can be easily retro-fitted without ripping the walls apart.  The bad thing is the sensors are powered by batteries (normally 4 AAA batteries or 2 CR123) which tend to be expensive.  One of my pet hates is buying AAA batteries, especially in SA where they cost MORE than the bigger AA batteries!  I wish manufacturers would stick to using AA batteries, but they usually try to build everything as small as possible and opt for the smaller batteries.
 
I'm also not that sure if I will run into Z-wave range problems between devices in this larger house.  Like our UK house it has solid brick internal walls rather than stud partitions, but this house is much larger.  Also some of the walls of this house (both internal and external) are solid stone and are over 1 foot thick.  I initially didn't think I would run into any problems employing Z-wave, as it is a mesh network and any of the installed devices can act as a repeater to transmit the control signals to their correct destination device.  I have since read somewhere that Z-wave only allows 4 hops for the signal to be transmitted from the source device to the controlled device, so I may run into problems putting Z-wave into this sprawling single-storey house!

@JimMurphy,
 
I look forward to what you have to say about what you have purchased when you get your product.  (Oomi Platinum kit).
 
What are you using relating to Z-Wave switches and control today and are you a happy camper with your dabbling to date with Z-Wave?
 
You mention a user-friendly controller; which one that you have tried to date are you most pleased with?

 

[JimMurphy]

Voice control does seem to be what manufacturers seem to be promoting this year.  Oomi is supposed to be supporting a very basic form of voice control - it sounds like users will still need to press a button first to put Oomi into the listening mode rather than have it continually listening for you to issue a voice command.  Some purchasers on the IGG forum have said they would also like to see Echo support.

 

[wkearney99]

In the current setup you can use whatever you want. If the higher tier still requires a keyword, it wouldn't be really much of an improvement I don't think. It might even mean a fixed keyword, whereas now folks can use whatever they want.

 
The developer docs and their presentations explain it well enough.  Skills can use whatever name they'd like.  The trick is to use one that's something folks will be comfortable using.  Overlaps would only be an issue if two apps used the same name, so you'd only be able to install one or the other.  First tier usage, however, is something that has to be coordinated with Amazon at a much higher (management) level. 

 

[wkearney99]

Voice control does seem to be what manufacturers seem to be promoting this year.  Oomi is supposed to be supporting a very basic form of voice control - it sounds like users will still need to press a button first to put Oomi into the listening mode rather than have it continually listening for you to issue a voice command.  Some purchasers on the IGG forum have said they would also like to see Echo support.

 
Jim, while you may be a fan, let's stick to products that are actually shipping to customers.  Not just yet another kickstarter wish.  

 

[wkearney99]

The good thing about Z-wave is it can be easily retro-fitted without ripping the walls apart.  The bad thing is the sensors are powered by batteries (normally 4 AAA batteries or 2 CR123) which tend to be expensive.  One of my pet hates is buying AAA batteries, especially in SA where they cost MORE than the bigger AA batteries!  I wish manufacturers would stick to using AA batteries, but they usually try to build everything as small as possible and opt for the smaller batteries.

 
Well, there's the trade-off.  Up front costs for installing wires or replacing batteries.  It's a shame the import hassles in SA make it that much more expensive.  Sounds like a startup business opportunity importing a container full of AAAs...

 

[pete_c]

Yeah the OP is about a new Z-Wave controller.  While it hasn't yet materilized there is a reason for the quest of said controller.
 
 
 
Well here typed for some 10 minutes and and while saving my post lost it.
 
Batteries here also are expensive.  Wireless meshing mixed with wired meshing is an issue.
 
Back in the 1990's wired network computations were slow.  That is the nature of networking in general.
 
Adding wireless and making assumptions on computation networking tables mixing wireless and wired devices has always been an issue.  Add a battery to a miniature RF device and you compound the issues of automation. The bandaid fix is more wireless which I suppose does work.
 
The driving pieces of automation magic using wireless and the basic premises of networking do and have clashed.
 
The use of voice recognition and remote control while it has been around for a long time. 
 
It has been reinvented and repackaged as something brand new. 
 
IE: TTS here has been around a long time. (since the 1980's whole house security / automation device).  VR / automation since the late 1990's.  Bored with it in the early 2000's then with the use of the Kinect a new interest in most recent years.
 
IE : chatty kathy automation TTS was turned down a bit over the last few years due to it being annoying mostly.
 
That is my fault for the same reasons I try to put a bunch of stuff on a touchscreen.  I went to automation TTS relating to every changing variable in multiple languages mostly to see if I could do it.  It became very low on the WAF.
 
Wife was watching a women's talk show on television 3-4 years ago discussing the use of voice recognition / TTS. 
 
She assumed for whatever reasons it was brand new even though she has heard voices now in the house for many years.
 
My cousin in the EU has a vacation cottage in the moutains there.  The cottage was built over 300 years ago by his wife's ancestors.  The windows there are portals in walls.  The house is more looking like a cave that was made up of stone.  He has not talked to me about automation but it could be an issue if it is wireless.

 

[wkearney99]

 I wish manufacturers would stick to using AA batteries, but they usually try to build everything as small as possible and opt for the smaller batteries.

 
Some do.  Lutron uses a CR123A that's about half the height of a AA.  There's a PDF discussing battery life for it.  For their smaller ones they use the coin shaped CR2450, which looks like a thicker variant of the typical CR2310 found in a lot of thin remotes and the like.

 

[JimMurphy]

Well, there's the trade-off.  Up front costs for installing wires or replacing batteries.  It's a shame the import hassles in SA make it that much more expensive.  Sounds like a startup business opportunity importing a container full of AAAs...

Well I haven't been able to find permanent employment since relocating to SA.  I get the odd contract job here and there, but not enough to sustain us.  My 1st choice was taking a permanent job, 2nd choice contracting and a distant 3rd was setting up my own business here.  It is looking more likely that I will need to run some form of business in SA.  Funnily enough I had looked into importing batteries into SA, although I was looking at Li-ion and LiFePO4 batteries from China.  Our availability of electricity isn't 24/7/365, as we have a monopoly called Eskom that supplies all the electricity and they cannot meet the current demand.  We were getting load shedding typically 2 to 3 times per week for several months for 2-2.5 hours at a time.  I put in a 1000VA UPS that runs off a pair of 12V 200Ah VRLA batteries so we have a back-up supply for for our TV/satellite/laptop/ADSL during load shedding.
 
I found out why batteries are so expensive here - imported batteries are subject to a 30% Customs import duty in addition to the 14% VAT!  This encourages people to manufacture (lead acid) batteries locally rather than import them.  My research into importing also revealed there is already a battery importer in our town (for UPS back-up).