Newbie Many UPB and a few ZWave Questions

[ayacht]

I have been looking at the different technologies and it came down to ZWave and UPB. I think that UPB will be the choice but I want some help confirming my observations. I don't want to get into a bashing match because I feel both technologies seem to have plenty of pro and less cons. I am impressed with the specs on both.

I use 900 MHz in my business so there is alot of testing that I do at home that could cause an issue for ZWave or make me more careful in that testing. Alot of WISPs use 900 MHz in rural areas. I will probably have some of both technologies running.

The deciding factor was the switch product availability and RF interference potential in my situation. It looked to me like ZWave was single switches to control each load and then the Scene Controllers were separate and could not control a load directly. Did I miss some products? There are some really big vendors behind it and that gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. But I need the scene and load control in one device, I don't have extra room or want to run for separate scene control switches.

I like the Simply Automated modular switch product and seems pretty cool and flexible for future needs. So here are my questions and clarifications needed.

There seems to be less support for UPB then ZWave and smaller manufacturers choosing it. Is UPB product on the way out or just newer and building up? Why has a big guy like Leviton not done any UPB?

Are different UPB products pretty compatible? Like HAI, Simply and PCS all playing nice together?

Next is the noise on the system and what I have running makes me think that it may not work. I have about 10 large HP servers running in a rack and air conditioners and other things that my reading has me thinking it could be an issue. I don't see any way to filter/clean up those high loads. Any thoughts from folks out there on this? I am planning to get starter kit to do some testing and that is probably the best way to confirm it.

Next question is on derating and combining switches in multi gang boxes. If we are using the HAI 15A relay switch or configuring a switch for on/off mode only are those switches not part of the derating equation? I have read it several times and it is still a little unclear to me.

How is the quality of the Simply Automated switches? They only come with a 2 year warranty. PCS gives a nice 5 year so that makes me feel they are very confident in their quality.

I really like the dual load simply automated switches and can see alot of places where I could put them in to control some lights and open up some space to use a 15A HAI to control a fan or heater load. Where I don't have room now. Is there any derating benefit is these switches are used only in on/off mode. I wish the manufacturer made two separate switches but I understand why they don not it is cheaper for them to make one part to do more tings then to do two separate.

Sorry for the log post but I wanted to get all my questions out there for discussion in a hope to gain some extra knowledge. Thank you all in advance for your help.

 

[Rupp]

Just an FYI for Z-Wave frequency. This is from Wiki and is why household items do not interfere with Z-Wave:

Z-Wave is a low-power wireless technology designed specifically for remote control applications. Unlike Wi-Fi and other IEEE 802.11-based wireless LAN systems that are designed primarily for high-bandwidth data flow, the Z-Wave RF system operates in the sub Gigahertz frequency range and is optimized for low-overhead commands such as on-off (as in a light switch or an appliance) and raise-lower (as in a thermostat or volume control), with the ability to include device metadata in the communications. Because Z-Wave operates apart from the 2.4 GHz frequency of 802.11 based wireless systems, it is largely impervious to interference from common household wireless electronics

You've obviously done your home work. Both of these technologies are excellent. Z-Wave offers more "stuff" but UPB is easier to program. I use both as well as a mixture of Insteon and X10. This is the beauty of a server/software back end. I use HomeSeer which will seamlessly integrate the best that each protocol offers transparent to the end users. The Schlage Z-Wave door locks are a good example of a device that Z-Wave offers that the others do not but the UPB switches are extremely easy to install and setup. I would recommend buying a couple of each of the protocols you are interested in and get a feel before jumping in on one technology and good luck with your endeavor.

 

[mustangcoupe]

I use 900 MHz in my business so there is alot of testing that I do at home that could cause an issue for ZWave or make me more careful in that testing. Alot of WISPs use 900 MHz in rural areas. I will probably have some of both technologies running.

Just an FYI for Z-Wave frequency. This is from Wiki and is why household items do not interfere with Z-Wave:

Also from the same WIKI

Frequency band: The Z-Wave Radio uses the 900 MHz ISM band: 908.42MHz (United States); 868.42MHz (Europe); 919.82MHz (Hong Kong); 921.42MHz (Australia/New Zealand).

I would agree with the op.. depending on your exact 900 MHz frequency you use in your business and test at home, it would be a concern. but if the band that you are using is far away from the above frequencies I would feed good about using it.


I use UPB and I have both Simply Automated and HAI switches working together without any problems.

In ether case you wont really know about the noise unless you try them. Maybe buy one or two of the switches and test them then resell here or (if they will work with you) return them to the dealer when you purchase the technology of your choice.

 

[ayacht]

Thanks for the reply on the RF I am an RF engineer by day so I looked up the freq. We have 3-4 different devices that we have to put up and test/burn-in from time to time. One is a gfsk freq. hopper at 2 MHz channels. I know that one could be an issue. I would have to always make sure that we don't go near 908.4. I ran a spectrum analysis on my property and there is some noise on that freq. but it is far enough above below the receive sensitivity that Z-Wave should work.

That is why I went back to hard wired. Also FYI to Z-Wavers - I deal with 900 MHz alot if you are having communication problems with your system look at your cordless phones, baby monitors for starters. I still find many of them using 900 every day and they auto switch channels usually so they will hop onto 908.4 and then not be there. Also your nieghbor maybe bleeding 900 rf if they are close enough. That freq. is a great one and it goes pretty far on low power.


Based on Rupps switch use he gave the quality a thumbs up just by using them.

Anyone have an answer to my derating questions and situations?

 

[ano]

Thanks for the reply on the RF I am an RF engineer by day so I looked up the freq. We have 3-4 different devices that we have to put up and test/burn-in from time to time. One is a gfsk freq. hopper at 2 MHz channels. I know that one could be an issue. I would have to always make sure that we don't go near 908.4. I ran a spectrum analysis on my property and there is some noise on that freq. but it is far enough above below the receive sensitivity that Z-Wave should work.

That is why I went back to hard wired. Also FYI to Z-Wavers - I deal with 900 MHz alot if you are having communication problems with your system look at your cordless phones, baby monitors for starters. I still find many of them using 900 every day and they auto switch channels usually so they will hop onto 908.4 and then not be there. Also your nieghbor maybe bleeding 900 rf if they are close enough. That freq. is a great one and it goes pretty far on low power.


Based on Rupps switch use he gave the quality a thumbs up just by using them.

Anyone have an answer to my derating questions and situations?

The deratting is related to the heat dissipation of the dimmers. HAI relay switches have no dimmers so they are not related here. Simply Automated switches have to be derated even if you set them to be non-dimming bacause they could be switched back to dimming later or by a future owner.

All UPB work with each other, even Gen 1 and Gen 2. (Simply Automated switches are all Gen 1 because the company doesn't think Gen 2 is an improvement. I tend to agree with them.) Generally I would recommend you stick with Gen 1 or Gen 2, but you can mix them. The only powerline noise issue I had was from a Panasonic microwave with what is called "inverter" technology. Power supplies aren't likely to be a problem, but if they are you could build a low-pass filter which sjouldn't be hard for an RF engineer. They probably are available built for UPB, but noise problems are so rare, they are hard to find.

I think the Simply Automated switches are pretty reliable. I've had about 60 of them for several years and never had a failure. I think one was bad out of the box, but that is about it.