Newbie's first post

[DaveQB]

Hey Dave,

As they say, you can do it the hard way (as most of us do just becuase it's quite enjoyable) or you can do it the easier way. Since you are starting fresh with a new build I would think you want to do it the easier way. One of the nice things is that you can combine both. Start with an expert and then play to your heart's content.

I tend to think of starting with a core system that's firmware based and not OS based like a computer. PC's have become much more reliable but not to the extent I am comfortable with. A core system would be ELK or HAI (Home Automation Inc) and a few others. They manage security, safety, lighting, HVAC, whole house audio and much more. The beauty is that they have their own solutions for each functionality but also have partnerships with leading specialists in each function. I happen to prefer HAI and have never had a problem that I haven't initiated on my own. I'm sure ELK is the same.

Sometimes a big part of an alarm company's revenue stream comes from monitoring and I've found that they are less likely to install comprehensive communicating automation systems as their core security system. If you went to the HAI or ELK website they would have a list of certified installers in your area. Most installers will work with you from as early as the blue-print phase to help you design your system. Believe me, nothing replaces experience in saving money and headaches down the road. You can contract a dealer to only do the design. It's not cheap but it's well worth it. That way you will have all of your cableplant designed for window and door contacts, motion sensors/detectors, glass break, thermostats, temperature sensors, smokes, gas detectors, CO Detectors, leak detectors, speakers for whole house audio and even AV for whole house Hi Def video distribution.

You will end up with a design layout of all the cabling paths and specifications which you can then have the consultant bid on as well as others. Even if you don't plan to use something now, its often best to install the cable anyway and leave it buried within the wall, well marked on the blue-print. But beware of the cableplant DMZ. This happens when one company, maybe the electrician installs the cables while another company does the terminations. If there's a problem with the cable passing specs when you go to use it (bend radius too tight, nicked by a stud nail, pinched between framing), it will probably be the OTHER guy's fault.

Good luck and have a blast!

Rick

Thanks Ricks

Good info there.
Working with a company to do this more [see ensuing post] so I won't be sourcing the hardware myself, but I am sure I can insist on a particular brand [I hope]
I will still have a read of ELK and HAI's sites just so I am more up to speed on these things.

 

[DaveQB]

Hi again,

I have done some reading of Broccone's thread (up to page 5) but I am clearly a fair bit behind what he or she knew back when that thread started.

I just spoke to the electrician company who will be doing the work on our house (they have the contract with the building company we ae going through). And they confirmed they do all electrical work including, sensors, alarms etc. So let's hope they cover what I eventually will want.

But in my reading, I think I now have some questions.

1) What is out there and commonly used in HA?
So far from my reading, the things that have caught my eye are:

• Temperature Sensors (although the AC will have a thermostat, it would be good to know the temperature in each room for other devices plus outside temp to pre-empt a hot day)
• Movement sensors for lights and possibly TV, audio etc.
• Speakers through out. My girlfriend particularly likes this.
• Movement sensors outside that trigger video recording and lights. Girlfriend really likes this.
• Mood light switch. Not sure what this is but sounds good!
• Video/audio front door intercom.
• Glass break sensor.

2. What can I do to make life easier for me down the track if I want change or install a new hardware I had not considered? This is my main question as the slab hasn't even been layed yet, I want to prepare as best I can (with help from here) to help myself out in the future.

On this front, so far I have thought:

• Run loads of cat6. I am thinking atleast 2 sockets per room above and beyond what I will allocate to a room for a HA purpose. I have a few computers and would like to use SIP handsets so each room with 2 LAN ports is what I am thinking. Should I go more?
• Ask them to use conduit to make replacing cables much easy. I hope that cables don't need replacing or I haven't under-allocated and need to run more, but if I can plan for worst case.

So with this, it seems I will only need to tell the electrical contractors what I want and less, how to do it. Any recommended readings now with that in mind? A place for ideas? I am sure they will have their own recommendations, but I don't want to leave it entirely up to them.

Thanks for all the feedback.

PS I have a plan written up [in progress] for what I want from each room. Should I post it in this thread or start a new one?
Thanks

 

[personalt]

(AND neutrals in ALL your switch boxes)

+1

no + 200

It's really the most important thing you can do to save yourself trouble later!

--Dan

to be clear.. neutrals in all your switches means dont do this
http://www.electrical-online.com/basicligh...gvariation1.htm
this is taking the power to the fixture and then coming down with a 2 conductor wire where the white and black are actually being used as power down and power back, in essence two blacks. What you want to do is bring power to the switch and then up to the light. the reason you dont do it the other way is many of the home automation swithces as they require a neutral. doing it the other way all you have is a single power in and power out in the switch box.

 

[personalt]

when you do the intercom and whole house audio wiring.. 2 CAT5 and 2 pairs of speaker wire to each room keypad location then the speaker wire follow through to the celing.

1 cat is for the intercom and one for the keypad, speaker wire goes in and out of box, dont cut it during prewire in the event that you want to use your overhead speakers for the intercom.
I went with a really nice russound intercom but skipped the nuvo keypads. part of it was because I didnt think about a 2nd cat5. well really I didnt think much about the intercom and ended up stealing my keypad prewiring for my intercom.

 

[DaveQB]

to be clear.. neutrals in all your switches means dont do this
http://www.electrical-online.com/basicligh...gvariation1.htm
this is taking the power to the fixture and then coming down with a 2 conductor wire where the white and black are actually being used as power down and power back, in essence two blacks. What you want to do is bring power to the switch and then up to the light. the reason you dont do it the other way is many of the home automation swithces as they require a neutral. doing it the other way all you have is a single power in and power out in the switch box.

I really don't what that means but I thank you for the effort.
I have never wired anything to do with power and won't be starting with my new house
I'll gladly pay someone to do it proper like.

when you do the intercom and whole house audio wiring.. 2 CAT5 and 2 pairs of speaker wire to each room keypad location then the speaker wire follow through to the celing.

1 cat is for the intercom and one for the keypad, speaker wire goes in and out of box, dont cut it during prewire in the event that you want to use your overhead speakers for the intercom.
I went with a really nice russound intercom but skipped the nuvo keypads. part of it was because I didnt think about a 2nd cat5. well really I didnt think much about the intercom and ended up stealing my keypad prewiring for my intercom.

I am thinking atleast 2 CAT6 to each room but more likely 4+ for rooms that have some purpose.
Conduit runs to allow for more cables or replacing cables sounds good to me.

 

[Fiasco]

to be clear.. neutrals in all your switches means dont do this
http://www.electrical-online.com/basicligh...gvariation1.htm
this is taking the power to the fixture and then coming down with a 2 conductor wire where the white and black are actually being used as power down and power back, in essence two blacks. What you want to do is bring power to the switch and then up to the light. the reason you dont do it the other way is many of the home automation swithces as they require a neutral. doing it the other way all you have is a single power in and power out in the switch box.

I really don't what that means but I thank you for the effort.
I have never wired anything to do with power and won't be starting with my new house
I'll gladly pay someone to do it proper like.

when you do the intercom and whole house audio wiring.. 2 CAT5 and 2 pairs of speaker wire to each room keypad location then the speaker wire follow through to the celing.

1 cat is for the intercom and one for the keypad, speaker wire goes in and out of box, dont cut it during prewire in the event that you want to use your overhead speakers for the intercom.
I went with a really nice russound intercom but skipped the nuvo keypads. part of it was because I didnt think about a 2nd cat5. well really I didnt think much about the intercom and ended up stealing my keypad prewiring for my intercom.

I am thinking atleast 2 CAT6 to each room but more likely 4+ for rooms that have some purpose.
Conduit runs to allow for more cables or replacing cables sounds good to me.

At this point you don't have to understand the importance of a neutral. Just tell your electrical contractor you want a neutral in your switch boxes.

 

[DaveQB]

At this point you don't have to understand the importance of a neutral. Just tell your electrical contractor you want a neutral in your switch boxes.

Cool. I will make mention of that in my notes for that upcoming meeting with the Electrical Contractor.

Thanks.

 

[Neurorad]

It sounds like price isn't a big issue with you.

Does your electrical contractor also install AV components, home theater and such? If not, then I think you should get another professional involved. He'll do a better job of making sure the requisite cables are run for AV. Of course, lots of people here will help with that, when you get some more details, but I'd be concerned that the electrical contrator may miss some important items if you rely on him too much. Same thing for security - someone with experience with alarm installs should also be involved. I don't know what subs the electrical contractor has on his team.

Does the electrical contractor sell and install automated lighting systems? Which ones? I'm not an expert, but I think there are other steps the electrical contractor would take to ensure that the wiring he installs will work well with the lighting system that you choose - neutrals in every box is a start, but I think there is more to it. UPB is one of the more popular technologies for automated lighting, and is commonly installed by homeowners, but also by some pros. I think there are other things that should be done with the wiring to make UPB more easy to use. Maybe some of the UPB users could speak up. If you want to roll the cost of the automated lighting into the mortgage, you need to decide now which system to use, and have it installed by the electrical contractor. Some of these systems are very expensive.

I'm not sure, but you may be able to roll the cost of the distributed audio system into the mortgage as well, if you have it installed by the electrical contractor's company, by them or by a sub.

Overwire now, to help futureproof. Think of all places you may ever want a TV, or in-wall/in-ceiling speakers and audio keypads. Wire for a couple touchscreens, even if you expect to use ipads and other portables.

It will be best if you can meet directly with the subs (alarm, AV), if you want to make sure all the wiring details get taken care of. They'll know details of exactly where glass break sensors, speakers, motion detectors, etc should be located - electrical contractor salesman may not.

I'm extremely detail-oriented myself - good for my profession, sometimes annoying for professional installers (and the wife).

 

[drozwood90]

At this point you don't have to understand the importance of a neutral. Just tell your electrical contractor you want a neutral in your switch boxes.

Cool. I will make mention of that in my notes for that upcoming meeting with the Electrical Contractor.

Thanks.

Basically, you want 3 wires in every switch box. You will want "HOT", "NEUTRAL", "SWITCHED" (of course ground, but that's code, so you shouldn't need to ask).

The cost shouldn't be much more (I paid $100 extra to get that in my house, when it was built 2 years-ish ago). Basically, they pull 12-3 instead of 12-2.

--Dan

 

[DaveQB]

Thanks for your post Neurorad. I will reply inline to address your points.

It sounds like price isn't a big issue with you.

I guess not. I'd rather it done right now then save some coin but have a half job done & have to live with it; the house is only built once

Does your electrical contractor also install AV components, home theater and such? If not, then I think you should get another professional involved. He'll do a better job of making sure the requisite cables are run for AV. Of course, lots of people here will help with that, when you get some more details, but I'd be concerned that the electrical contrator may miss some important items if you rely on him too much. Same thing for security - someone with experience with alarm installs should also be involved. I don't know what subs the electrical contractor has on his team.

From my brief conversation with them, the company handles it all. We are due for a sit down meeting with them and I was going to wait til then to hit them with the kinda things I want & see how they respond to that. You think I should push to find out more from them now over the phone & based on that, look at other specialist?

Does the electrical contractor sell and install automated lighting systems? Which ones? I'm not an expert, but I think there are other steps the electrical contractor would take to ensure that the wiring he installs will work well with the lighting system that you choose - neutrals in every box is a start, but I think there is more to it. UPB is one of the more popular technologies for automated lighting, and is commonly installed by homeowners, but also by some pros. I think there are other things that should be done with the wiring to make UPB more easy to use. Maybe some of the UPB users could speak up. If you want to roll the cost of the automated lighting into the mortgage, you need to decide now which system to use, and have it installed by the electrical contractor. Some of these systems are very expensive.

Is UPB a brand or style? I am in Australia if that has any bearing on the relevance of UPB to me.

Overwire now, to help futureproof. Think of all places you may ever want a TV, or in-wall/in-ceiling speakers and audio keypads. Wire for a couple touchscreens, even if you expect to use ipads and other portables.

That's my biggest concern. I want to totally future proof it. Cables everywhere in the wall cavities.
I will be using MythTV for a distributed TV system, so I only need Cat6 to supply my TV signal to parts of the house. I will still run c-ax as a fall back, just in case.

It will be best if you can meet directly with the subs (alarm, AV), if you want to make sure all the wiring details get taken care of. They'll know details of exactly where glass break sensors, speakers, motion detectors, etc should be located - electrical contractor salesman may not.

This meeting will reveal how the structure of the this company works.

I'm extremely detail-oriented myself - good for my profession, sometimes annoying for professional installers (and the wife).

I appreciate & like that. My issue is i don't know what I want in a detailed manner.

 

[DaveQB]

Basically, you want 3 wires in every switch box. You will want "HOT", "NEUTRAL", "SWITCHED" (of course ground, but that's code, so you shouldn't need to ask).

The cost shouldn't be much more (I paid $100 extra to get that in my house, when it was built 2 years-ish ago). Basically, they pull 12-3 instead of 12-2.

--Dan

Thanks. I'll add that to my notes (when I compile them) for the meeting.

 

[DaveQB]

Just an update.

The Electrical contract has made contact now [as the building certificate was issued 3 weeks ago and building is commencing.]

They send a compehensive brochure for Clipsal. Clipsal is big down here in Australia, not sure if it is anywhere else.

Can people here have a cursory glance at their site [http://www.clipsal.com.au/homeowner/home] and please let me know if they offer a good set of solutions and it would be "safe" to go with them as a product provider?

On the surface they look good to me. I am about to read their brochure.

Thanks everybody!!

http://www.clipsal.com.au/homeowner/home