Not very reliable ZigBee Locks.

[ano]

Hi Ryan:

First, thanks for answering questions. Zigbee information is pretty hard to come by and its nice to hear from somebody that knows what they are talking about.

O.K. I have a Omni Pro II with FW 3.10A My ZIM has FW V14.23 And I have three Kwikset ZigBee locks. (I'm sure they are not Control4)

I did get all the locks to enroll with the Omni using PC Access but it took several times for each with me moving around the ZIM each time. The locks work spuratically, sometimes yes, most times no. Sometimes PC Access can get their status but can't control them. When I disconnect the ZIM from the Omni and get closer to the locks they usually work.

The three locks are on doors that would form a triangle when viewed from above. No lock is more than 35' from another. The ZIM is maybe 50' from the furthest one but in the next room away from another.

I do have Wi-Fi, but the router is on the other side of the house. The ZIM is in a closet with lots of electrical stuff like a PC, Omni, and a HAI GE wireless receiver. I thought one lock was bad, but returned it and the replacement is no better. I've unenrolled and reenrolled several times, with no change.

I also have a non-HAI ZigBee plug that seems to work OK, even when its located next to a lock that doesn't work. If these things were supposed to reroute the lock signals, it doesn't eem like it is doing it.

Any ideas? If I hear how reliable ZigBee is one more time I'm going to throw-up. And unlike the popular wisdom, I learned that these battery Zigbee locks DO NOT operate in a mesh network.

Is Zigbee range poor or do you think I have some type of interference?

 

[Desert_AIP]

It doesn't matter how close the locks are to one another, they don't talk to each other.
Battery powered devices become the child of a plugged in device.
The mother device buffers the signals to the battery device to save battery power.
It's possible you have RFI where the ZIM is located and the signal isn't getting to the locks.
It sounds like all of the locks are only talking to the ZIM itself in your setup.

I don't think all the plug in devices can take on this mother-child relationship, so your plug may not be capable.

When you move the ZIM around close to the locks you are getting the signal a clear LOS.
Electrical wires, metal studs (if applicable), copper pipes, low-E coated windows, all create RFI or block radio signals.
Is your ZIM in a metal structured wiring box (like a leviton wall panel)?
Then it is inside a metal can and the signals can't get to and from it.

 

[RArbour]

Ano,
As you probably suspect and eluded to, the range for the Zigbee Locks is not the best. This is not really a example of a general range of Zigbee, but rather one manufacturer's decision to reduce the RF power in their battery operated device to save energy. Although I cannot speak for all other manufacturers and have not tested every battery device in the market, I suspect it would be a norm that a battery operated device would have reduced RF performance. So you are most likely in a situation where the ZIM can transmit to the lock fine, but the lock cannot transmit back, thus making the connection unusable. You may already know how a ZIgbee mesh network works but let me elaborate encase someone else comes across this thread.

In Zigbee there are 3 types of devices: Coordinators, Routers, and End devices.

Coordinators are mainly the brains of the networks. It allows device to join disband, and can setup other network level configurations. There can be only one coordinator per network. HAI's coordinator is the ZIM/Microcontroller. The ZIM can be a parent to 4 end devices (see below).

Routers are permanently powered devices that can route RF packets in the mesh network. HAI's Routers are the thermostat, Load Control Modules, and the companion. HAI's routers can be a parent to 4 end devices (see below).

End devices are typically battery powered devices that in order to save power typically reduce their RF power and are in sleep/hibernation state for most of its life. In order for these end devices to receive packets intended for them while they are sleeping, it must be linked up (happens automatically during joining) with a parent device within its RF range. This parent will buffer up the messages for these sleeping devices and relay the information when it wakes up.



Hopefully that brief explanation will give you a general feeling of what is going on through the airwaves. Our ZIM (and other devices) was tested to have excellent range. As I am sure you are aware all situations are different based on its environment. My personal tests saw the ZIM working about 150-200' through about 7 walls, so I suspect your 50' situation should not be an issue (unless you have some serious RF dampening stucco).

So my suspicion on what is happening in your case is either:
You have some sort of RF interference in the room you are having issues with
The RF path to that room has some non friendly RF dampers blockings its way (Stucco, large metal, etc)
Or the devices you are trying to talk to RF performance is not ideal.

One other thing I can offer is that when a ZIM comes online and has no existing network (out the box or you disbanded all) it will perform an energy scan to pick a good channel (CH11->Ch26). Sometimes a situation arises where that channel can be later saturated, but not at the location where the ZIM would see this and instruct all devices to move to a new channel. If you suspect there is a chance this could be happening, look to see what your existing channel is (Menu->Device Details) and send me a PM with that information. For experimental purposes I can send you a firmware that chooses a channel of my choosing to see if any RF performance improves.

Ryan

*edit - fixed some typos

*edit2 - One other thing inspired by Desert_AIP's comments. Sometimes the ZIM is located in a non ideal location (basement closet inside a metal wiring can). The ZIM uses 485 to connect to the Omni so that you can move the ZIM to a more ideal RF location (485 allows for excellent range). I have seen some installations where RF performance was greatly improved by moving devices to the attic.

 

[ano]

That is great information. Moving the ZIM might be a great idea. Also, maybe i should buy a HAI 15A Plug-in Load Module and plug it closer to the locks? Since its a router, does it forward the data from the locks automatically?

PS I sent you a PM on the channel.

 

[RArbour]

Yes a router will forward the lock's data. Since the lock is mainly sleeping all communication to the lock has to go through its parent. The router would be its parent in this situation.

 

[arakasi55]

Ano, do you have any other Zigbee devices besides the locks, ZIM and the plug? Is the plug a router as well as a "client"?
I believe that only one wireless lock can be used with the ZIM without having an additional powered router such as the Zigbee enabled Omnistat or other devices Ryan mentioned above. This could be the reason for the sporadic behaviour you're experiencing.

 

[RArbour]

Ano, do you have any other Zigbee devices besides the locks, ZIM and the plug? Is the plug a router as well as a "client"?
I believe that only one wireless lock can be used with the ZIM without having an additional powered router such as the Zigbee enabled Omnistat or other devices Ryan mentioned above. This could be the reason for the sporadic behaviour you're experiencing.

The ZIM can support 4 battery powered devices (Children) as well as 60 routers, for a total of 64 devices on the network (65 if you include the ZIM). HAI's other devices, Thermostat, LCM's, Companion, can each support 4 battery powered children as well. So I don't believe this is Ano's problem.

 

[ano]

Ryan at HAI has been great in helping me out. Were still doing research on all the details. In the mean time I'd recommend you really learn about ZigBee before running out to buy devices. The fact that battery operated devices like locks DON'T participate in the mesh networking is very important because without other devices like routers, thermostats and switches, its just a direct path between the locks and the ZIM, and I can tell you from experience, the range of battery devices like locks isn't that far.

If you don't have ZigBee switches and thermostats because you use UPB and wired thermostats that are half the price of the Zigbee models, you could have big problems like i do. In other words, if you just think that you can add some Zigbee locks and a ZIM, you better think again. If a wall or two are included, I haven't seen Zigbee distances from locks even reach 30 feet. If you have lots of line-powered Zigbee devices like light switches, that shouldn't, but with Zigbee being so new, that isn't usually the case.

I have two pool pumps about 70 feet from the back of my house I was thinking of converting to Zigbee, BUT first of all it would have to mounted in an outdoor metal enclosure I have but Zigbee won't go through metal, and even if I did have Zigbee routers in my house, I suspect the distance might be too great. A technology is only good if it works in the environment you have.

 

[arakasi55]

I too have found that the range for the battery powered locks is very short - not even 15 foot for reliable communication.
I was informed by ASIHome that only one lock could be used per ZIM without an additional router. Interestingly, it was posted on their website under the Zigbee locks, but that now seems to have been removed. Sorry for the misinformation there.

There seems to be a company called Netvox making Zigbee devices, including power plug relays like you mention above that also act as routers, but also range extenders too (50 and 150ft spec).

 

[ano]

Yeah, 15 feet sounds about right. Check out this company also:

http://www.simplehomenet.com/

They have a good Zigbee 15A plug for $79 and a router only for $59. Only problem is it doesn't seem to work with the ZIM, but HAI is looking into it.

So most line powered Zigbee devices can be the parent of from 4 to 6 children, depending on their design. HAI claims 4 for their devices. But in reality since these battery devices only go about 15 feet, the chances of you having more than 4 within 15 feet of a router becomes pretty unlikely anyway. I'm now thinking you really need a router near each lock.

I'm a bit surprised because I'm a wireless analyst that has been covering the technology for at least 10 years now and the first offical spec was out in 2003. With all this time, you would have thought they would have figured out a technology that works better than that. A Zigbee chip now costs under a dollar, but I don't think Kwikset got that memo.

Rember, if you are going to buy Zigbee devices make sure they have the "Home Automation" profile (HA) and are certified by the Zigbee Alliance. You can't use "Smart Energy" devices, you can't use Control4, with Centrlite, only Azela devices work. Having said that, HAI only supports locks, on/off loads, and thermostats, and even those, not fully.

 

[arakasi55]

Thanks for the link Ano. I did find that company, but as I'm in Australia, their components didn't suit, but they did prompt me to find Netvox who do global voltage and multiple receptacle shapes.

Good notes on the wireless info too, thanks!

 

[ano]

If you are outside the US there is even a potential other problem, the frequecy used varies per region.

 

[ano]

I should add that i just received HAI 15A plug to my ZigBee network and it is like night and day. I put the plug near one lock and now they appear to all be routing through it. This leads me to warn anyone that thinks they will just use a ZIM and locks. Unless your locks are very close to your ZIM, it won't work. From my experience, ZIM to Lock range is maybe 25 ft. tops. Otherwise you will very likely need another line-powered Zigbee device to make it all work.

 

[arakasi55]

Ano, did you find similar improvement using the zigbee power plug?
I made up a new cable and ran the ZIM to a couple of feet away from the lock. While this initially worked with my testing of the cable, once I ran the cable through the roof space (single level house) and placed the ZIM directly above the door (about 4 feet away) it wouldn't work any more.

I was contemplating just mounting the ZIM beside the door (garage opener is already there) but it's not ideal aesthetically. My other option was to buy a range extender and a couple of Zigbee power plug units from Netvox which also act as routers http://www.netvox.com.tw/Z-800.asp

 

[ano]

Unfortunately your experience is like mine. These Zigbee locks certainly don't go very far. Zigbee has two typical power levels, 1mW and 100mW. 1mW is the minimum and its claimed that this will go around 100 feet inside. I'm certainly not seeing that. The 100mW devices can go 300 feet, they say. I have no doubt the lock is 1mW but range is certainly not 100 feet, and usually not 10 feet.

So to your router question. In theory any powered Zigbee device can act as a router, and in theory this could add another 100 feet. The reality is not so much. At first I tried a plug from SmartEnIt that acted like it was seeing the locks in enrollment mode, but didn't help the range at all. I spoke to HAI about this, and it should work, but didn't. They are looking into it, so now its an open issue.

Then I bought an HAI 15A plug. I paird it to the ZIM and it does help. Its not perfect, I have 3 locks maybe 30 feet from each other and it works good if I put the plug in the middle, but if the plug is near on lock, it sometimes can't see the other ones, sometimes. Its at least better than before.

Basically this is pretty disappointing. Not only were the Zigbee locks triple the price of the same lock without Zigbee, but then you need to buy a ZIM, and it looks like Plugs which have to be every 10 feet beween the ZIM and the locks. So what, over $1200 to control three lousy locks. Its just not worth it.

So want to hear something even funnier? I'm sure you have seen on those Kwikset locks that the Zigbee version is claimed to support 30 user codes, but the instructions only talk about two? I asked Kwikset about that and they wrote back. They said to program the other codes, just keep pressing the program button. Like for the 30 user code, press the program button 30 times, then enter your code, then press lock. I haven't tried it, but it sounds like a very elegant solution. :wacko: I'm glad it doesn't store 400 codes.