Occupancy Sensors For HA

[hucker]

It's a parameter-driven thing, I could just as easily make it 1 minute as 30 minutes, and each room has its own timer. The shortest I'd feel comfortable setting it for is probably 20ish mins for the LivRm/bedrooms, in case someone is just sitting there reading. The closet is set to 15 mins.

Although you're right, I could put kitchen down to 1 minute, honestly I hadn't given it that much thought. Too much crap in the spare parts closet to install for the first time to go back and optimize other stuff

Why do you have closets on timers? It seems much easier to have the mechanical switch that turns them on automatically on open and off on close. If you must automate then a magnetic door sensor might work easier than a motion.

To answer Vaughns question about turning things off I won't do it in the living room or kitchen, too much negative WAF for that. For hallways I have them turn off using a slow dim, like 5 minutes so we never get "instant off-when-I-don't want it". A bit of a hack but it doesn't have the negative WAF.

 

[IVB]

Why do you have closets on timers? It seems much easier to have the mechanical switch that turns them on automatically on open and off on close. If you must automate then a magnetic door sensor might work easier than a motion.

Why do switches instead of timers when you can have both

I have a rule that turns it off when the door is closed, but alas - what about when the wife leaves the closet door open then rushes out the door (which she loves to do as she's constantly changing her mind about which jacket to wear). Or leaves the closet door open then walks to another room.

 

[ver0776]

There are so many situations, but in a couple cases, I have set it so if I manually change the dim level of the lights, it changes the vacancy timer, so maybe 10 minutes instead of 1. So in the case I am home alone in a bathroom and do not close the door and will be in there a while, I can manually override the timers. One of my users does some slow dimming stuff and I played with it before, but I am not currently doing any of it. I am kinda in a it works great or it has to get fixed phase still. It is probably pratical to use that in a lot of situations so you have some warnings.

Has anyone considers adding a WAF Mode in addition to HOME, SLEEP, etc? heheheh I have a guest mode where the house talks and shows off more for when company comes over, could probably do the opposite for WAF mode... (still trying to earn the W in WAF myself though =)

Anyways, the point is for people setting up their systems, be creative and you should be able to get very tight occupancy timers. Especially if you have a Occupants = 1 variable, because if you are alone then only 1 room could possibly be occupied at a time. So if there is livingroom motion, no need to wait, turn off the kitchen lights. It is almost scary how fast a system can respond with only one occupant. Unfortunately the opposite is ture too; "If Occupants > 2 Then Give Up Trying anything fancy"


Hey, on a side note: Do I aggravate people with my suggestions since I don't use a mainstream HA system that I can actually share specifics about? I try to keep my HA topics generic and not be some self-promoting jerk or anything.... But I still feel guilty sometimes...

Vaughn

 

[WayneW]

Hey, on a side note: Do I aggravate people with my suggestions since I don't use a mainstream HA system that I can actually share specifics about? I try to keep my HA topics generic and not be some self-promoting jerk or anything.... But I still feel guilty sometimes...

Don't feel guilty and don't stop sharing ideas. Don't be afraid to promote your software. Unless somebody is dealing with a very specific system question (such as a rule question or about the hardware itself), most of our systems are more similar than different at the core.

 

[BryanE]

Also keep in mind there is a big difference between a "Motion Detector" and an "Occupancy Sensor". Motion Detectors tend to work fine as triggers but are pretty lousy at sensing occupancy. Once a light turns on with a motion sensor (PIR) and you sit still for too long, expect to be sitting in the dark. Unless you build some automation rules with timers, which still doesn’t provide the best solution.

Leviton makes a very nice “occupancy sensor†that includes both IR and Ultrasonic detection. These are typically found in commercial environments but do an exceptional job of sensing occupancy… even if you are sitting on the can for an extended period.

Something like this:
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmD...p;section=15466

Unfortunately, you can expect to pay a premium for a dual solution like this.

 

[hucker]

Vaughn

Keep the ideas coming, it is good to get the basics out no matter what controller you use. Hey I use a HomeVision pro! BTW since there are 5 in the house I never even thought about the Occupancy=1 mode. That would be fun to play with.

 

[personalt]

Can the builder just run a chase into the attic? Can you get to all/most rooms from the attic?

 

[broconne]

Also keep in mind there is a big difference between a "Motion Detector" and an "Occupancy Sensor". Motion Detectors tend to work fine as triggers but are pretty lousy at sensing occupancy. Once a light turns on with a motion sensor (PIR) and you sit still for too long, expect to be sitting in the dark. Unless you build some automation rules with timers, which still doesn’t provide the best solution.

Leviton makes a very nice “occupancy sensor†that includes both IR and Ultrasonic detection. These are typically found in commercial environments but do an exceptional job of sensing occupancy… even if you are sitting on the can for an extended period.

Something like this:
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmD...p;section=15466

Unfortunately, you can expect to pay a premium for a dual solution like this.

Excellent point. Does someone make an occupancy/motion detector? Where it can distinguish between both and you can hook up motion (for security) and occupancy (for automation) to distinct zones? I would like to not have to pay another $40 and have more corner clutter!

 

[broconne]

Can the builder just run a chase into the attic? Can you get to all/most rooms from the attic?

I have very limited attic access. The floor of the attic is tongue and grove plywood that is both glued and nailed to the subfloor. So, any access will be very difficult. This is a "feature" as the attic is very finishable in this home. This removes almost all access to any but the outside walls of the second floor.

Depending on how things are framed (blocking, etc). I may be able to wire from the unfinished basement into the first floor for some occupancy/motion. But to be honest, I have done my fair share of post wire-running (mostly cat5 in my old house) and running things to the corners (where i would want these sensors) I think will be a PITA.

But, good point. I originally had a lot more wiring in the house, but have tried to widdle it down to things that I can't do after. Such as wiring for OnQ/ALC, door sensors, motions/occupancy in a lot of rooms, whole home audio, corner cameras, whole house vacuum, LV smokes, temp/humidity in bathroom.

 

[charliebarns]

Something like this:
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmD...p;section=15466

Unfortunately, you can expect to pay a premium for a dual solution like this.

I'm in the process of installing these now. See my other thread on how to wire it as there were some good suggestions. Make sure you get one with the HVAC/Security relay built in. In the end the sensor with power pack (you have to use their power pack) costs around $200. The sensitivity of this thing is incredible. Sitting dead still on a couch and moving one finger sets it off.

CB

 

[rhughes]

I have motion sensors in most rooms that I use in different ways. All of my switches are Insteon, but my motion sensors are a combination of hard-wired and X10 wireless. I use ISY and a self-programmed Barionet device for control and rules. In general, as we move through the house lights come on and then fade off over 30 seconds (halls), 60 seconds (living areas) and 5 minutes (kitchen). Bathrooms also have door sensors so the lights stay on when the doors are closed. When a person enters a living area, then the light switch can be turned on, which disables the motion rules. In the evening, the lights come on at 100%, but starting late at night until around 5:00 AM, the lights come on at only 50%. Non-living areas, including halls, bathrooms, entry, garage, etc., also have timers of various durations to fade the lights off. However, any light can be double-tapped on to disable the timers. Closet lights are controlled by door sensors and come full on when opened and full off when closed. The closets also have timers in case someone forgets to close the door, as do the bathrooms in case a door is left closed.

In my opinion, the most useful in order is halls, bathrooms, kitchen and closets, with living areas last. Hope this helps.

Randy

 

[Mike C]

It's a parameter-driven thing, I could just as easily make it 1 minute as 30 minutes, and each room has its own timer. The shortest I'd feel comfortable setting it for is probably 20ish mins for the LivRm/bedrooms, in case someone is just sitting there reading. The closet is set to 15 mins.

Although you're right, I could put kitchen down to 1 minute, honestly I hadn't given it that much thought. Too much crap in the spare parts closet to install for the first time to go back and optimize other stuff

Hi Guys,

When does one choose an occupancy vs a motion sensor? Is there a reason to not use an occupancy sensor when the primary purpose is security where you would use a traditional motion sensor?

 

[Mike C]

found this on worthing distribution's site....

T00185 Fundamental Differences Between Security Motion Detectors And Occupancy Sensors
Article Details
Last Updated
7th of August, 2006

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Overview:
This technical support note is designed to explain the fundamental differences between security motion detectors and an occupancy sensor. It will cover the use of each device and cover applications where they are best used.



Configuration:

Security Motion Detectors
Designed for security
May have dual technology PIR and Microwave
Both technologies must confirm motion to activate
May have sensitivity technology for pets
Use walk-through adjustable pulse count setting
User establishes how many infrared beams need to be broken before the motion detector activates
Higher pulse count = less sensitivity


Occupancy Detectors
Used for lighting and temperature control
Used to determine if the room is occupied
Most have a timer functions built in
Very high sensitivity
Have capability to turn lights on when an individual enters the room
May have dual technology
PIR and Microwave or acoustical detection
Either technology may determine occupancy
May have minor motion areas and major motion areas
Closer to the sensor requires less motion
Applications
Motion Detectors
A motion detector is engineered as a security device
If using with an automation controller you can activate automation events when someone walks into a room
With a motion detector, if an individual in the room remains fairly still, the motion detector zone return to secure
Security Sensors react slower then occupancy sensors
Security sensors only detect motion, not occupancy
Security sensors are not recommended for turning lights off
Occupancy Sensors
Most if not all occupancy are built for lighting
Substantially save bulb life by turning on and turn off automatically
Occupancy sensors are available for automation controllers
Look for an occupancy sensor that has a relay output that can be wired to a zone on the automation controller
12VDC is recommended
Most timers activate when the occupancy sensor is tripped and will stay tripped for as long as the timer is active
Occupancy sensors are far more sensitive then security sensors
While generally stable an occupancy sensor is subject to false tripping
An Occupancy sensor is not recommended for security applications


Typical Applications:

Lighting Control
Security Monitory
Automation Events


Products Related to This Technical Bulletin:

SENPI6000 – Sentrol motion detector with pet immunity
SENRCA-A – Sentrol motion detector
SNCM-9-R – Sensorswitch low-voltage occupancy detector with relay
SNWSD – Sensorswitch line voltage switch/occupancy device
LEVOSC04-I0W – Leviton ceiling-mount occupancy sensor
LEVOSC05-M0W – Leviton multi-technology ceiling-mount occupancy sensor
See the Worthington Catalog for more Motion Detectors and Occupancy Sensors


Information Source for This Technical Bulletin:

Leviton L504 Catalog

Sensor Switch Catalog

GE Security Website

GE Security Catalog

Worthington 2006 Catalog

 

[drozwood90]

In general, as we move through the house lights come on and then fade off over 30 seconds (halls), 60 seconds (living areas) and 5 minutes (kitchen). Bathrooms also have door sensors so the lights stay on when the doors are closed. When a person enters a living area, then the light switch can be turned on, which disables the motion rules.

Randy,

How do you have your system setup so that you can tell if the person wants to override the automation?

I've been trying to grapple with this, I think what I'm going to do is use 90% for automation and 100% for person (something like that).

I had a long conversation with jwilson56 about this, where he is actually doing exactly what I wanted. He was using this Motion Sensor. The website says motion, but he told me that they are VERY sensative. I wanted something that (as he did) triggered with "just a finger" moving. My issue with doing this exactly like jwilson56 is that he uses a different automation software, which allows him to exploit the way how UPB interacts with his setup. I'm using Homeseer, so I have not been able to easily identify a way to tell if the "on" came from HS or from a switch that someone pushed (without re-writing a lot of code, to set a variable if the trigger was automated and not from a person).

--Dan

 

[PaulC]

It's a parameter-driven thing, I could just as easily make it 1 minute as 30 minutes, and each room has its own timer. The shortest I'd feel comfortable setting it for is probably 20ish mins for the LivRm/bedrooms, in case someone is just sitting there reading. The closet is set to 15 mins.

Although you're right, I could put kitchen down to 1 minute, honestly I hadn't given it that much thought. Too much crap in the spare parts closet to install for the first time to go back and optimize other stuff

This is my first post, hope it is appearing in the proper forum...
To add to the motion detector / occupancy sensor.
I had an alarm system (DSC) installed a few years ago with 4 motion detectors and a few contacts (basement door and garden shed door). I designed a simple interface to connect these sensors to my DIY HA. The output of the interface is an opto-coupler with open collector that is feeding a digital interface to a PC.
If interested, I can supply the schematic of this interface. One of the motion detector cannot be captured since it is wired to a keypad but DSC is selling an RS232 interface that (I believe) is outputting any detection in ascii text format.