OnQ ALC wiring questions

[t_garp]

Hi,

I have decided to go with the OnQ ALC system in my new house.

I am planning to run Cat5e to all the switches that I would like to control. I have a few questions though in the best way to do it.

Should I homerun all the wires to the basement? Or shoud I use the hubs to wire 9 switches, then run 1 cat5e from there to the basement?

For a three way switch, I simply need to run a Cat5e between the two switches? My electrician wired it like he normally would? Is there anything I should make sure to teel him? Are there a maximum # of loads on a circuit?

The 600w dimmer offered does not appear to connect directly to the AC, so, what would I use it for?


Thanks,

 

[beelzerob]

I'll answer as best I can, since I have the system and plans to use it...but don't actually have it "installed" just yet.

Homerunning is up to you. I did. However, don't forget there are length limits for how much cable can go on a single branch. So if your runs are going to be long, then you might look at doing a mini-homerun to an accessible room and putting a hub there, and then the single cat5 to the main homerun in the basement.

Me, i wanted everything in one place, no matter what. So everything goes to the basement homerun. But personal choice on your part, it'll work the same either way.

Note that you don't need a single cat5 per switch....you can run up to 32 devices on the exact same pair of wires. So if you could thread it easier, you could run your cat5 run past several switches. And as long as you run your cat5 from switch to switch (NOT homerun) for auxillary switches, then you'll be ok. You CAN homerun your auxillary switches too, but that's risky, as I learned. That's because each aux switch needs its own pair of wires (3, actually), so those can eat up the wires in a cat5 bundle real quick. Just safer to run from aux switch directly to powered switch OR give each aux switch its own cat5 and homerun that.

As far as your electrician wiring it...that all depends. If you're installing the OnQ from the get-go, and you have no desire to ever remove it (for selling the house), then all the electrician needs to do for 3-way switches is just wire a single switch to control the light. The dummy/aux switches are unpowered, and all they do is tell the wired/powered switch to turn on or off. So 3, 4, 5-way switches are trivial for the electrician...he just rigs a single switch to turn it on.

However, if you plan on installing the lights LATER (which I did), or if you'd prefer that your light wiring is "normal" (for possible resale later), then yes, just have him wire 3-ways like he always would. You'll have to do some unravelling of them later when you put in your dummy switches, though, because you'll basically have to convert them into a single switch that turns the light on and off. Not a big problem, but if you can avoid that headache later, go for it.

Not sure what you mean by max loads on a circuit. There's a max number of 32 addressable switches on a branch, as far as the cat5e goes.

The only thing I'd do with the electrician is make sure they're installing the deepest gang boxes possible for your switches, because the OnQ switches are fat things. They will not fix in too shallow a box.

I'm not sure what you're basing your 600w dimmer question on...maybe a pic? I can guarantee you it connects to main power. If you read that off of setnetpro.com, their unit descriptions can be a little quirky sometimes.

Hope that helps. Others here know lots more than me.

 

[t_garp]

The only thing I'd do with the electrician is make sure they're installing the deepest gang boxes possible for your switches, because the OnQ switches are fat things. They will not fix in too shallow a box.

I'm not sure what you're basing your 600w dimmer question on...maybe a pic? I can guarantee you it connects to main power. If you read that off of setnetpro.com, their unit descriptions can be a little quirky sometimes.

Hope that helps. Others here know lots more than me.

My electrician is installing 2 1/2" deep boxes, is that enough?

I guess the 600w dimmers I need are these ones. 363143-01

http://www.onqlegrand.com/jahia/Jahia/pid/1093

Not these ones one the Setnet site... 363143-11
http://www.onqlegrand.com/jahia/Jahia/cach...DA6B212210423D5

talk about confusing...

 

[beelzerob]

My electrician is installing 2 1/2" deep boxes, is that enough?

I guess the 600w dimmers I need are these ones. 363143-01

talk about confusing...

Ya, it is confusing, I'll grant ya that. The "title" of that dimmer would lead you to believe it can handle 600W, but the description clearly indicates it is only an AUX switch...it controls the actual 600 w dimmer, it is not the dimmer itself. One clue at setnetpro is the price...the aux switches are about 1/3 the price.

As far as the gang boxes...there is no "deep enough". The deeper, the easier to install the device. If you're committed to ALC, I'd recommend just buying a 600w dimmer and take it to the electrician for show and tell, then put it in a box and see how much space you have behind the switch. The only thing you're looking for is as much room as possible to stuff the wires and wire nuts back into it.

 

[felixrosbergen]

Also a cautionary note for others....

I had my electrican give me a sample box of what he intended to use. It turns out he is planning to use a box that screws into the studs. THe screws come in diagonal which made fitting a ALC 600W dimmer in the first slot impossible. Now we're looking for a new solution.

The goal was to find a box that had knockouts to connect flexible conduit, had dividers to make part of the box LV and have the whole thing meet code.

When we sort it out i'll let you guys know.

 

[mcelectric]

Also a cautionary note for others....

I had my electrican give me a sample box of what he intended to use. It turns out he is planning to use a box that screws into the studs. THe screws come in diagonal which made fitting a ALC 600W dimmer in the first slot impossible. Now we're looking for a new solution.

The goal was to find a box that had knockouts to connect flexible conduit, had dividers to make part of the box LV and have the whole thing meet code.

When we sort it out i'll let you guys know. What type of wiring method is your electrican using?

 

[TonyStewart]

My electrician is installing 2 1/2" deep boxes, is that enough?

I guess the 600w dimmers I need are these ones. 363143-01

talk about confusing...

Ya, it is confusing, I'll grant ya that. The "title" of that dimmer would lead you to believe it can handle 600W, but the description clearly indicates it is only an AUX switch...it controls the actual 600 w dimmer, it is not the dimmer itself. One clue at setnetpro is the price...the aux switches are about 1/3 the price.

As far as the gang boxes...there is no "deep enough". The deeper, the easier to install the device. If you're committed to ALC, I'd recommend just buying a 600w dimmer and take it to the electrician for show and tell, then put it in a box and see how much space you have behind the switch. The only thing you're looking for is as much room as possible to stuff the wires and wire nuts back into it.

The 363143-01 had a "dimpled paddle (rocker)" which has not been available from OnQ for quite a few months. The replacement is the same switch with a smooth rocker 363143-11 (-11 is for white). If you already have some of the older dimpled rockers or if you wish to convert them to other colors, we can ship you some conversion rockers and bezels.

Tell your electrician that the switch you will use is about the size a typical analog dimmer. Pass and Slater makes a box called the Slater series that works well if you are using nail in boxes. For conduit applications they also have a large box although I can't remember the model or name.

Hope this helps

God Bless

 

[TonyStewart]

I'll answer as best I can, since I have the system and plans to use it...but don't actually have it "installed" just yet.

Homerunning is up to you. I did. However, don't forget there are length limits for how much cable can go on a single branch. So if your runs are going to be long, then you might look at doing a mini-homerun to an accessible room and putting a hub there, and then the single cat5 to the main homerun in the basement.

Me, i wanted everything in one place, no matter what. So everything goes to the basement homerun. But personal choice on your part, it'll work the same either way.

Note that you don't need a single cat5 per switch....you can run up to 32 devices on the exact same pair of wires. So if you could thread it easier, you could run your cat5 run past several switches. And as long as you run your cat5 from switch to switch (NOT homerun) for auxillary switches, then you'll be ok. You CAN homerun your auxillary switches too, but that's risky, as I learned. That's because each aux switch needs its own pair of wires (3, actually), so those can eat up the wires in a cat5 bundle real quick. Just safer to run from aux switch directly to powered switch OR give each aux switch its own cat5 and homerun that.

As far as your electrician wiring it...that all depends. If you're installing the OnQ from the get-go, and you have no desire to ever remove it (for selling the house), then all the electrician needs to do for 3-way switches is just wire a single switch to control the light. The dummy/aux switches are unpowered, and all they do is tell the wired/powered switch to turn on or off. So 3, 4, 5-way switches are trivial for the electrician...he just rigs a single switch to turn it on.

However, if you plan on installing the lights LATER (which I did), or if you'd prefer that your light wiring is "normal" (for possible resale later), then yes, just have him wire 3-ways like he always would. You'll have to do some unravelling of them later when you put in your dummy switches, though, because you'll basically have to convert them into a single switch that turns the light on and off. Not a big problem, but if you can avoid that headache later, go for it.

Not sure what you mean by max loads on a circuit. There's a max number of 32 addressable switches on a branch, as far as the cat5e goes.

The only thing I'd do with the electrician is make sure they're installing the deepest gang boxes possible for your switches, because the OnQ switches are fat things. They will not fix in too shallow a box.

I'm not sure what you're basing your 600w dimmer question on...maybe a pic? I can guarantee you it connects to main power. If you read that off of setnetpro.com, their unit descriptions can be a little quirky sometimes.

Hope that helps. Others here know lots more than me.

Beezerob is very wise. I would add that there is a 1000watt ALC dimmer 364335-11 but it must go into a single gang box due to the heat sinks. And the max number of addressable switches is 31 per branch.

While I do like the simplicity of having the Elec run one way circuits, I would have them run the 3-ways just like they are use to doing. Then your house is NOT PROPRIETARILY WIRED. This is good advice for Hall ways and stairwells. However the Elec will love you if you install one ways for convenience lighting like additional switches for turning off/on outside lights from the bedroom (example). Instead of putting in high voltage traveler runs for these purposes you can install 363145-11 (Aux/3-way), 364776-01 (4 position scene switch with IR), 364720-01 (4 button scene switch wo IR) and/or 364721-05 (quad aux switches).

TS

 

[Herdfan]

Should I homerun all the wires to the basement? Or shoud I use the hubs to wire 9 switches, then run 1 cat5e from there to the basement?

How much do you trust your drywall crew? A cut wire is a PITA. So since wire is cheap, I would suggest homerunning a loop. That way if a wire gets cut somewhere along the line you still have a good path back.

Just a suggestion.

 

[TonyStewart]

Should I homerun all the wires to the basement? Or shoud I use the hubs to wire 9 switches, then run 1 cat5e from there to the basement?

How much do you trust your drywall crew? A cut wire is a PITA. So since wire is cheap, I would suggest homerunning a loop. That way if a wire gets cut somewhere along the line you still have a good path back.

Just a suggestion.

I totally agree. The only way to go!

 

[felixrosbergen]

Hi Tony,

I have a few ALC questions i've been unable to get anwered.

I read somewhere that the ALC600 watt dimmer doesnt have to be derated when put into a multigang box with other dimmers? Is this true?

I have a chandelier with 9 40watt bulbs that i want put put on an ALC dimmer....will this work?

Another question is when using the ALC<> ELK interface where the 'brains' are. Does the ALC controller still manage the scenes etc? Or is it all Elk driven now? In order to unload memory space and programming rules from the ELK can you set up a scene in the ALC controller and then just simply have the elk activiate the scene?

Can any ALC switch (not just scene switch) activat a scene? e.g. If i press the living room light switch can that trigger a scene that also turns on some other lights? Or do i need a scene switch for this?

When usng the ALC<>ELK can each light activation be used as a trigger? Does the ELK poll the switch status or does ALC report 'change event'? I ask because this could circumvent the issue i mention above where you don't have a scene switch. If somebody locally turns a light on via a ALC switch can the ELK notice then and then do some sort of action (like turn on other lights or trigger a scene)?

When using scene switches how do you turn off a scene or do you need to programm a 'off' scene and link that to a button? It would be nice if a 3nd press of a scene switch button would turn the light in the scene off. If ALC can't do this i suppose putting the actuall scene configuration into ELK and some rules that say 'when scene switch button 1 is pressed then turn lights xxx on and set some parameter to '1', then when scene switch button 1 is pressed again and parameter is '1' turn lights off and set parameter to 0. Would this work?

 

[TonyStewart]

Hi Tony,

I have a few ALC questions i've been unable to get anwered.

I read somewhere that the ALC600 watt dimmer doesnt have to be derated when put into a multigang box with other dimmers? Is this true?

-------> You are correct! No derating is necessary. However, keep the tech sheet that ships with each switch in case the electrical inspector wants to see it.

I have a chandelier with 9 40watt bulbs that i want put put on an ALC dimmer....will this work?

-------> It sure will work. Just note that there are 75 watt bulbs available as well. Should you or the next homeowner ever use them, your would exceed the max limit. You can use the 900 Part number 364335-11 watt dimmer instead. However you must place this switch in a single gang box. Or......... Install it on the end of a double or triple gang box and break off ONE TAB only of the heatsink. Each tab removed reduces the rating by 200 watts. With one tab removed at 700 watts, you could then replace all 40 watt bulbs with 75 and still have wattage left over. 9x75 Watts = 675 watts. One side of the heat sink removed 900 watts - 200 watts (removal of one tab) = 700 watts. And there is some good news. When the 900 watt was first released several years ago it was only rated for 900 watts. Today it can handle 1000 watts. See picture here and note the heat sinks on either side.

Another question is when using the ALC<> ELK interface where the 'brains' are. Does the ALC controller still manage the scenes etc? Or is it all Elk driven now? In order to unload memory space and programming rules from the ELK can you set up a scene in the ALC controller and then just simply have the elk activiate the scene?

-------> Good news! The interface is called the scene learning interface. Meaning that when used with their scene switches, all scenes and modes are handled by the interface saving precious programming code in the Elk.

Can any ALC switch (not just scene switch) activat a scene? e.g. If i press the living room light switch can that trigger a scene that also turns on some other lights? Or do i need a scene switch for this?

-------> Yes and no. If you are using the scene learning function then only the Scene switches can start scenes without programming rules in the Elk. But any ALC button press can be used as input to the Elk to start scenes, arm security or whatever your imagination can create. And you can use a scene switch to start a scene using the interface's scene learning feature and to also be a trigger to the Elk to run any other macro - say to arm security in the night mode.

When usng the ALC<>ELK can each light activation be used as a trigger? Does the ELK poll the switch status or does ALC report 'change event'? I ask because this could circumvent the issue i mention above where you don't have a scene switch. If somebody locally turns a light on via a ALC switch can the ELK notice then and then do some sort of action (like turn on other lights or trigger a scene)?

-------> See above. ALC is a "closed loop" system that is always polling. The 2-wire connection loop is called the polling loop. Contact Spanky at Elk (also a member of Cocoontech) about the finer points of the polling link to the Elk.

When using scene switches how do you turn off a scene or do you need to programm a 'off' scene and link that to a button? It would be nice if a 3nd press of a scene switch button would turn the light in the scene off. If ALC can't do this i suppose putting the actuall scene configuration into ELK and some rules that say 'when scene switch button 1 is pressed then turn lights xxx on and set some parameter to '1', then when scene switch button 1 is pressed again and parameter is '1' turn lights off and set parameter to 0. Would this work?

-------> This can be real tricky. Your example will work. It is what I call using "flags". While it does work as you described the timing of the rule can often cause it to get out of sequence and it uses up rule space. The cleaner way to plan is to use one of the 4 buttons for on and another for off. But there is also another rule of thought....

Don't get too carried away with the off. Most often Button one sets the lighting to scene A, button 2 to a different scene, button 3 to a third scene and button 4 is off for all scenes. Furthermore....... Starting lighting modes from one button press is popular. Turning out lights is often best left to manual operation. It's awful unfriendly to turn out a light or group of lights at the wrong time than it is to turn them on at the wrong time.

Hope this Helps
God Bless