Phase coupler - Inverting?

[chrisdias]

I realized today that I'm not using the 220v plug for the dryer since our dryer is gas. The cheapest/easiest way to cross phases in my house would be a plug in phase coupler. I've been looking at a few and don't quite know which to get. I wanted to see if anyone had thoughts/suggestions.

The cheapest ones are these two plug ins. I don't know what benefit is of "Inverting", if at all.

Simply Automated "Inverting" Phase Coupler
http://www.homecontrols.com/Simply-Automat...-50A-SAZPCIPX0A

Simply Automated Phase Coupler
http://www.homecontrols.com/Simply-Automat...-50A-SAZPCIPX0A

This looks like the same thing, but different form factor and by PulseWorks which appears to be the "owner" of the UPB spec/technogy, so maybe they know more -_-.

PulseWorks Plug-In Passive Coupler
http://www.homecontrols.com/PulseWorx-Plug...Coupler-PCPPC34

And this mother of all mothers, a repeater. Seems like I would want this on a huge house. Also seems like if i got one of the cheaper ones and it fixes my problems, I could upgrade to this to make it "a gazillion more times reliable" .

PulseWorks Split Phase Repeater
http://www.homecontrols.com/PCS-UPB-Split-...-Plug-In-PCSPRx

Does anyone have any suggestions or things to watch out for?

Thanks!
Chris

 

[cornutt]

From what I've read, the general consensus seems to be: Always check your signal and noise levels with UPStart first. Many UPB installations work without a phase coupler. If you need a phase coupler, try a non-inverting one first. If that makes it worse instead of better, then try an inverting one.

A repeater shouldn't be necessary in a residence, even a large one. I think those things are for commercial installations.

 

[fcwilt]

My research lead me to conclude that the closer to the breaker panels the better so I used some hardwired types.

I tried both the non-inverting units from HAI and inverting units from SA.

For me the SA inverting units made things worse.

I have two main panels and putting one unit in each panel was not better then just one unit in one panel. I picked the panel which gave the best results for the first unit. Then I added the second unit to the other panel - it didn't seem to make a lot of difference so I left it off. I say off because I wired them up with switches so I could easily try different settings if things changed, as some folks have reported.

I have three sub-panels and after Xmas I am going to wire them up with couplers to see what effect they might have.

It seems that there would be an optimum arrangement but it may have to be arrived at by trial and error.

I have a HAI repeater (hardwired) on order to see for myself what sort of difference it makes, if any.

 

[PaulD]

I have a PCS PPC-1 passive phase coupler in one of my three service panels and I have good strong signals on both phases. I am using it based on some recommendations I received from a HA retailer. I do not know why he recommended this one over any other style since he sells all the major brands. I have not tried any of other types (no need to so far) but I am curious how the different types work and what conditions might cause you to prefer one type over another.

 

[cornutt]

For me the SA inverting units made things worse.

That makes sense to me. As I understand UPB, it works by putting little spikes on the line at specific points in the sine-wave cycle. It allows for this to happen on both the positive and negative halves of the cycle. In a standard two-legged residential setup, the little spikes should already be communicated to the other leg by going back through the utility company's transformer, which also has the effect of inverting them (since the legs are inverted relative to each other). So if you put in an inverting repeater, it's cancelling out the inverted signal that already comes back through the utility transformer. So I'm not sure in what kind of situation an inverting repeater would be called for.

 

[cornutt]

Also, it occurs to me that since this thread isn't specific to HAI, it should probably be in the main Automation area. A lot more people will see it there.

 

[chrisdias]

I would rather have this in my panel (i only have one panel) but I don't feel like paying for an electrician to come out and wire in phase coupler up only to find out it doesnt do anything for me. I figure if I get better results with the plug in one, then I can make it more robust and get a wired one.

I'll try the non-inverting one and let you all know what happens.

I think you are right about post being less about HAI and it should go into the regular HA forum. Not sure if I can do that myself, but I'll look around.

Chris

 

[PaulD]

I would rather have this in my panel (i only have one panel) but I don't feel like paying for an electrician to come out and wire in phase coupler up only to find out it doesnt do anything for me. I figure if I get better results with the plug in one, then I can make it more robust and get a wired one.

Chris

I did not want to put my couple inside my electrical panel so I had my electrician wire a 220 outlet adjacent to my panel. That let me mount my coupler close to the panel. Was not sure how important it is to be close to the panel but some people seem to think it is. That also allowed me to have 220 outlet in the garage in case I ever wanted a 220 device in the garage.

 

[chrisdias]

I would rather have this in my panel (i only have one panel) but I don't feel like paying for an electrician to come out and wire in phase coupler up only to find out it doesnt do anything for me. I figure if I get better results with the plug in one, then I can make it more robust and get a wired one.

Chris

I did not want to put my couple inside my electrical panel so I had my electrician wire a 220 outlet adjacent to my panel. That let me mount my coupler close to the panel. Was not sure how important it is to be close to the panel but some people seem to think it is. That also allowed me to have 220 outlet in the garage in case I ever wanted a 220 device in the garage.

Good idea.

The laundry room is adjacent to the garage where the panel is. So, its physically pretty close to the panel, but who knows where they ran the wires in this place .

 

[PaulD]

The laundry room is adjacent to the garage where the panel is. So, its physically pretty close to the panel, but who knows where they ran the wires in this place .

Since you intend to use your unused 220 dryer plug, I would bet that it is on a circuit by itself thus that should be the same as directly mounting in the electrical panel. Check you breakers and see if you have a dedicated one for the dryer circuit. I would not expect any better performance by mounting a coupler in the service panel vs a dedicated 220 outlet. Also, wire is expensive so I would expect the electrician to run the wire in the shortest path allowed by code.

 

[chrisdias]

The laundry room is adjacent to the garage where the panel is. So, its physically pretty close to the panel, but who knows where they ran the wires in this place .

Since you intend to use your unused 220 dryer plug, I would bet that it is on a circuit by itself thus that should be the same as directly mounting in the electrical panel. Check you breakers and see if you have a dedicated one for the dryer circuit. I would not expect any better performance by mounting a coupler in the service panel vs a dedicated 220 outlet. Also, wire is expensive so I would expect the electrician to run the wire in the shortest path allowed by code.

dedicated circut

 

[chrisdias]

My 220v plug-in phase coupler arrived yesterday. Plugged it in this morning and now i can reliably see units on both phases. I still see alot of noise on one of the phases, but from the quiet phase I can talk to the noisy phase just fine it seems.

The unit is pretty big, as it can accept a 220v plug into it as well as act as a coupler. My only concern right now is the gas line to the dryer now rests on this unit. Not sure if it will heat up or anything, but the paranoid me doesn't like that

I'll end up ordering wire in phase coupler and have an electrician install it in a couple of months. Peace of mind is priceless...

Chris

 

[chrisdias]

Spoke too soon.... Last night, the noise increased and I could not reliably control the switches on the noisy phase from the quiet phase.

Since I seem to have more issues at night than the morning, I went outside last night into the neighborhood and found out that one neighbor has a lap pool that i could hear running. I wonder if they use that at night, or if the filter comes on at night, or some such thing... argh.

I'm now looking at a whole house noise filter/surge protector. Someone is recommending the Leviton 52000 or 42000 series protectors. Even if it doesnt help with my noise problem at least i would have a whole house surge protector.

Anyone have experience with these in a UPB environment?

Chris

 

[chrisdias]

update on my noise saga...

considering the only things that changed were an outdoor motion light and the light switches i installed onto the noisy phase, i figured i would spend most of yesterday rewiring the switches. I had already physically pulled the motion light off the wires and still had the same noise problems.

as best as i could tell, once i removed the switches and left all the wires open, the noise levels dropped back to what i had been seeing a few months back. this was promising B). i slowly began putting wires together to see if i could then identify the culprit. I eventually got the whole thing back together working, with very little noise on the line. I have no idea what I did right/wrong to "fix" the problem. But, i was able to get it all back in place with great communication over both phases, and very little noise on the noisy phase.

that was until about 30min later, when i checked it again, and there was noise everywhere!

this morning it seems to have subsided and i'm now pretty clean, although a bit more noisy than when i first had everything put together last night.

my next investigation is to look at the CFLs that I have on the outdoor lights. I've got them set up with dimming disabled, and they seem to be ok noise wise when i first turn them on, but after some amount of time the noise returns. i wonder if once they warm up a bit, they start making noise...

chris

 

[cornutt]

It kind of sounds like you may have something arcing somewhere -- maybe a switch that is failing, or a bad lamp socket. Have you been able to isolate it to a particular circuit?