HAI UBP - repeater or coupler?

[pgray007]

Great tips, thanks! I'm all HAI sonics ordered the HAI repeater and got 2 15 amp double breakers. I'll put the repeater in a sub panel so I can completely shut it down and put cardboard over the top just for good measure.

I was actually having a really bad time with UPB after several months of flawless performance, with about 50% of commands failing, but moved my PIM to another outlet on a different circuit and now go about 97%. Hopefully the repeater will get me just about perfect.

 

[pete_c]

@Ano,
 
Is the assumption that all PCS couplers are non-inverting couplers?
 
Is there a way to tell if it is a non-inverting coupler?
 
I am asking because I started initially with PCS coupler then went to the HAI repeater.
 
I have PCS, HAI and SA UPB switches here.  The PCS coupler is off rignt now.

 

[ano]

Great tips, thanks! I'm all HAI sonics ordered the HAI repeater and got 2 15 amp double breakers. I'll put the repeater in a sub panel so I can completely shut it down and put cardboard over the top just for good measure.

I was actually having a really bad time with UPB after several months of flawless performance, with about 50% of commands failing, but moved my PIM to another outlet on a different circuit and now go about 97%. Hopefully the repeater will get me just about perfect.

The repeater will work great. Its really the way to go for Gen II+.
 
UPB can be very flaky because without a coupler or repeater there is no telling how good your signal across phases will be.  During the day, my signal from one phase to the other is perfect. At night it drops to 0.0000% and I mean zero without repeaters or couplers. I have no idea why.
 
A repeater adds a nice feature to UPStart. You can see the signal level from and to the repeater to every device. That really helps with debugging.
 

@Ano,
 
Is the assumption that all PCS couplers are non-inverting couplers?
 
Is there a way to tell if it is a non-inverting coupler?
 
I am asking because I started initially with PCS coupler then went to the HAI repeater.
 
I have PCS, HAI and SA UPB switches here.  The PCS coupler is off rignt now.

It is my belief that HAI and PCS only sell non-inverting couplers.  
 
Simply Automated sells both, but they seem to favor the inverting kind.  Maybe they have a patent on them. I don't know.
 
It is really interesting how SA went in one direction and PCS went in another. I suspect they had a falling-out on royalty charges, but don't know the full story.

 

[mikefamig]

I was advised by Simply Automated tech support and I quote -
 
"
[SIZE=11pt]Let me be as gentle as possible regarding the repeater.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The only time I would recommend a repeater is if every other trick to get rid of noise or attenuation had already been tried.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The biggest problems with a repeater is that it is an “active device” which is less reliable than a passive device in the same application.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The other problem is that the repeater does just that it repeats.  So it will transmit, at least, as many times during a given period as all of the individual UPB transmitters in a house put together. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]  [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]"[/SIZE]
I understand this to mean that the repeater increases traffic on the system dramatically which should be avoided if possible.
 
Mike.

 

[pete_c]

Thanks Ano / Mike.
 
Here as everything is on breakers have shut off the PCS coupler and left on the HAI repeater.  All of the scheduled lighting has worked fine in this manner.  All of the updated UPB switches have been SA / Multitoggle and dual load.  I don't look much with Upstart these days unless posting signal strengths here. 

 

[ano]

I was advised by Simply Automated tech support and I quote -
 
"
[SIZE=11pt]Let me be as gentle as possible regarding the repeater.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The only time I would recommend a repeater is if every other trick to get rid of noise or attenuation had already been tried.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The biggest problems with a repeater is that it is an “active device” which is less reliable than a passive device in the same application.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The other problem is that the repeater does just that it repeats.  So it will transmit, at least, as many times during a given period as all of the individual UPB transmitters in a house put together. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]  [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]"[/SIZE]
I understand this to mean that the repeater increases traffic on the system dramatically which should be avoided if possible.
 
Mike.

Read the last sentence of my last post.  Also note that PCS, Powerline Lighting (50Hz), HAI/Leviton, Rain8 and Web Mountain are on the other side of the argument, and of course, PCS owns and developed the standard.  Certaily a repeater is an active device, just as every switch and the PIM. A repeater DOESN'T increase traffic of any multicast message, it just increases the amplitute of the signal of the second half of it.
 
Of course I'm sure SA's dislike of UPB repeaters has NOTHING to do with the fact that for whatever reason, they do not pocess the license to make Gen II or Gen III switches that work with repeaters.  
 
They are like a company that didn't want to license CD technology, so they try to convince you vinyl records are better.  "How can I say this gently? Those CD's are so small you will lose them, and the players use lasers. They will burn your eyes out."

 

[mikefamig]

Read the last sentence of my last post.  Also note that PCS, Powerline Lighting (50Hz), HAI/Leviton, Rain8 and Web Mountain are on the other side of the argument, and of course, PCS owns and developed the standard.  Certaily a repeater is an active device, just as every switch and the PIM. A repeater DOESN'T increase traffic of any multicast message, it just increases the amplitute of the signal of the second half of it.
 
Of course I'm sure SA's dislike of UPB repeaters has NOTHING to do with the fact that for whatever reason, they do not pocess the license to make Gen II or Gen III switches that work with repeaters.  
 
They are like a company that didn't want to license CD technology, so they try to convince you vinyl records are better.  "How can I say this gently? Those CD's are so small you will lose them, and the players use lasers. They will burn your eyes out."

 
That's interesting. So you're saying that the repeater is not actually a repeater but more accurately an amplifier? Do you know if a repeater also couples the signal as a cross phase coupler does? I'm just asking for academic reasons, my system had some infrequent problems which were cured by a phase coupler.
 
Mike.

 

[ano]

That's interesting. So you're saying that the repeater is not actually a repeater but more accurately an amplifier? Do you know if a repeater also couples the signal as a cross phase coupler does? I'm just asking for academic reasons, my system had some infrequent problems which were cured by a phase coupler.
 
Mike.

If you look at the settings for a switch in UPStart, under the "advanced" tab, you will see a setting for "transmission attempts" and its likely set to 2.  This is called a multicast message, and its very common for wireless, X-10, etc.  anytime transmission may get interrupted by noise.  With UPB there is an additional problem of getting the signal to both sides of the powerline.  Couplers are passive and just link the signal from one side to the other, but the signal is always lower on the "other" phase.
 
A repeater listens to both phases during the first transmission, then retransmit the command on BOTH phases, but it does it in a way where the signal is perfectly in-phase with the original signal. So only the second of two transmissions is amplified on both phases.  The total transmission length is not increased and only the second half is amplified.
 
Simply Automated Gen I switches can receive multicast messages, but they don't transmit multicast messages so their return transmissions can't be amplified with a repeater. This was added in the Gen II specs.

 

[pgray007]

So I got my repeater installed on a subpanel in my detached garage. I tried adding it to UPStart per the HAI flyer that came with it, and UPStart, running from a PC on the same subpanel, couldn't find the repeater. I usually use Dealer Access to do all my UPB programming and have only attempted to do some debugging with UPStart, but when I tried to do a network discover on UPStart the program could "see" all my switches, but would do a bunch of retires and then fail to add any of them (I let it try the first 3 since it took a good 2-6 minutes to attempt each one).
 
Repeater LED is on (blue) and it flashes red and gives a slight buzz when a UPB command goes out on the powerline, so I assume it's functioning correctly.
 
I also had some trouble adding 2 new switches (new in box, relatively current stock since they now have Leviton branding) and both failed when enrolling in Dealer Access at various points of the enrollment process, although they enrolled "enough" to be controlled. I've never had a switch fail to enroll, and I also tried turning of the repeater at the two breakers to no avail.
 
I'm also having some trouble getting 100% on switch status (i.e. someone turns on at the wall and the OPII updates)  and my switches are missing a command about 1 out of 20 times.
 
Any idea what could be going on here? When I first installed the system about 2 years ago I had near 100% reliability, and then it slowly tanked. I moved the PIM to another outlet and that got me to about 95%, but with the repeater install yesterday I'm a bit surprised to be seeing problems. Am I missing something with UPStart or should network discovery usually find everything and add it to the network without any major hassle?
 

The repeater will work great. Its really the way to go for Gen II+.
 
UPB can be very flaky because without a coupler or repeater there is no telling how good your signal across phases will be.  During the day, my signal from one phase to the other is perfect. At night it drops to 0.0000% and I mean zero without repeaters or couplers. I have no idea why.
 
A repeater adds a nice feature to UPStart. You can see the signal level from and to the repeater to every device. That really helps with debugging.
 
It is my belief that HAI and PCS only sell non-inverting couplers.  
 
Simply Automated sells both, but they seem to favor the inverting kind.  Maybe they have a patent on them. I don't know.
 
It is really interesting how SA went in one direction and PCS went in another. I suspect they had a falling-out on royalty charges, but don't know the full story.

 

 

[Desert_AIP]

Pgray007,
Do you have an electric water heater?

 

[ano]

So I got my repeater installed on a subpanel in my detached garage. I tried adding it to UPStart per the HAI flyer that came with it, and UPStart, running from a PC on the same subpanel, couldn't find the repeater. I usually use Dealer Access to do all my UPB programming and have only attempted to do some debugging with UPStart, but when I tried to do a network discover on UPStart the program could "see" all my switches, but would do a bunch of retires and then fail to add any of them (I let it try the first 3 since it took a good 2-6 minutes to attempt each one).
 
Repeater LED is on (blue) and it flashes red and gives a slight buzz when a UPB command goes out on the powerline, so I assume it's functioning correctly.
 
I also had some trouble adding 2 new switches (new in box, relatively current stock since they now have Leviton branding) and both failed when enrolling in Dealer Access at various points of the enrollment process, although they enrolled "enough" to be controlled. I've never had a switch fail to enroll, and I also tried turning of the repeater at the two breakers to no avail.
 
I'm also having some trouble getting 100% on switch status (i.e. someone turns on at the wall and the OPII updates)  and my switches are missing a command about 1 out of 20 times.
 
Any idea what could be going on here? When I first installed the system about 2 years ago I had near 100% reliability, and then it slowly tanked. I moved the PIM to another outlet and that got me to about 95%, but with the repeater install yesterday I'm a bit surprised to be seeing problems. Am I missing something with UPStart or should network discovery usually find everything and add it to the network without any major hassle?

UPStart network discovery seeing a switch doesn't mean much.  I've had that as well, in fact occasionally network discovery sees switches not actually there.
 
The good thing is a repeater will work even if not added in UPStart, but you should add it because UPStart can then use it for testing purposes.  The blue LED and buzzing mean the repeater is working, but the fact that UPStart can't see it is a problem. You put it in setup mode, right? 
 
Sounds like you have a major signal blocker. You might need to do some trial and error turning off breakers.  Really look at large screen TVs, microwaves, and other electronics. 

 

[pgray007]

No, tankless gas unit.
 

Pgray007,
Do you have an electric water heater?

 

 

[pgray007]

I've never been able to actually add a switch from UPStart using discovery (pre or post repeater) although I've only tried it a couple of times and had assumed it was user error on my part.
 
So how do I debug a potential noise problem? Do I turn on upstart, view the noise levels, and then start shutting off breakers? When I find the offender, should the noise essentially drop to zero? I'm totally new at debugging this stuff. I dumped a fairly big ZWave investment after terrible reliability and hope I'm not going to run into the same thing with my UPB install.
 
The odd thing with these failed switch enrollments is that it's never happened before, and the only vairable is that these are Leviton-branded (i.e. newer box) versus the old "HAI Box" switches never failing to fully enroll. I guess I start with debugging and then I have one more HAI-branded switch that I can swap in and see if that makes any difference.
 
 

UPStart network discovery seeing a switch doesn't mean much.  I've had that as well, in fact occasionally network discovery sees switches not actually there.
 
The good thing is a repeater will work even if not added in UPStart, but you should add it because UPStart can then use it for testing purposes.  The blue LED and buzzing mean the repeater is working, but the fact that UPStart can't see it is a problem. You put it in setup mode, right? 
 
Sounds like you have a major signal blocker. You might need to do some trial and error turning off breakers.  Really look at large screen TVs, microwaves, and other electronics. 

 

 

[pete_c]

I've never been able to actually add a switch from UPStart using discovery (pre or post repeater) although I've only tried it a couple of times and had assumed it was user error on my part.

 
Here utilize an SA USB PIM plugged in to my laptop such that I can wire up a switch and add it to the UPB network using Upstart local to the room.  I can also connect the wireless laptop to a networked serial PIM and do similiar adds to my UPB network.
 
I have an HAI UPB serial PIM and SA UPB serial PIM adjacent to the fuse panel in the basement and one HAI UPB serial PIM plugged in to an outlet on the second floor on the opposite side of the home and connected to a serial server.
 
I updated my PCS UPB signal coupler to an HAI repeater a few years ago when I had a timely UPB signal sucking issue.  Personally here guesstimated that the signal issue came from outside of my home (validated by shutting off breakers).
 
Since this time and update to using the HAI repeater I have been fine (with older HAI/PCS and newer SA UPB switches).

 

[ano]

What I would do is use the switches you have for a signal test, assuming you have several spread out over the house.  Turn off the repeater for now since you say its not helping anyway.  Take a laptop with a PIM and plug it in to an outlet close to the breaker panel. Then run a network test to each switch. Find the rooms or area with the lowest signals. Shut off these low signal area breakers. Now can you pair the repeater?  It can be tricky because switches on the OPPOSITE phase of the PIM will always have less signal compared to the SAME phase, so keep that in mind.  Hopefully with a little trial and error you can pin down the problem.  Its probably a single appliance or device.