SA US1-40 switches to HAI HLC Mode

pete_c

Guru
Over the years here have mentioned that I use PCS, HAI and SA switches in UPB mode connected to my OmniPro 2 panel.
 
The above has worked fine for me.  I have multiple UPB PIMs in place outside of the HAI connected UPB PIMs and see UPB HAI switch status just fine here. 
 
I decided this week to tinker a bit with HLC mode using only SA US1-40's.  (giving up a bit on the US2-40's for a time).
 
I have followed the old HAI KB documention posted and what is posted here relating to said endeavor.
 
Been using Upstart to configure the US1-40 switches using the matrix spreadsheet.
 
Using OP2 connected HAILogger, Homeseer Software plugin, Omnitouch 5.7e and Snaplink to watch status.
 
Side loading UPB software Upstart and HS3 Plugin seeing switch status change just fine (expected).
 
I have an HAI UPB repeater, SA and PCS UPB phase coupler attached to my fuse panel each device has a separate breakers. 
 
I am using a UPB plugin software here to see UPB switch and UPB link changes as I am supposing that HLC status is using the UPB link status for changes to the switch.
 
When I test one switch manually turning it on or off I do not see the status changing in the above applications and wondering what I am doing wrong.
 
Here is the configuration of one US1-40 test switch.  (doing screen shots here of switch / link configuration as shown in Upstart and screen shots of PCA HLC switch configuration).
 
UPB-1.jpg
UPB-2.jpg
UPB-3.jpg
UPB-4.jpg
UPB-5.jpg
UPB-6.jpg
UPB-7.jpg
 
Toggled switch on with a double tap and watching links 242/241 and see this:
 
Hallway switch toggle ON.jpg
 
Disabled HAI repeater via breaker and tested communications to US1-40 switch.
 
Good communications
 
Looked at links 242/241 and now see only link 241 status snap on or snap off.  I do not see any status changing for link 242.  Omnitouch 5.7e control / hallway switch view shows no status changes.
 
(IE: have to redo my pictures to fit this stuff here).
 

Desert_AIP

Senior Member
Pete, you have the 241/242 links configured as status transmissions.
The Omni is looking for an "activate" command.
When it sees Link 241 Activate, it then looks at the unit transmitting to determine which switch sent the command.
It won't take any action on that link if it is a deactivate, fade, status, etc., transmission.

Even turning lights off uses the "Activate" command.
 

pete_c

Guru
Thank you Desert_AIP.
 
So have I configured the OP2 panel and SA US1-40 switch correctly in HLC mode?
 
Just tested the above with the Omnitouch 5.7e. 
 
If I go to the room scene controller in Omnitouch 5.7e and turn it on or off the virtual room scene switch all go on or off which is what it is supposed to do.  Same with scenes A-D.
 
Am I supposed to label in PCA the UPB links 241 and 242 to status?  Nevermind I see that they are pre labeled.
 
status241-242.jpg
 
If I go to my test hallway switch and double tap it to snap on I do not see the switch status change in the Omnitouch 5.7e.
 
What am I doing wrong here?
 
Would it be easier right now to remove my hallway switch which is an SA US1-40 and replace it with an HAI switch for testing purposes?
 

Desert_AIP

Senior Member
Pete.
 
That switch is unit 37, which is the 5th unit in room 5.
 
Do you have unit 33 named "Main Hall" in PCAccess?
The first unit of all HLC Rooms have to be named the room name.  But that unit can only be a room controller.  If you don't have a room controller you still have to name the room, and that has to be the first swith unit ID in the room allocation scheme.  That tells the Omni the room is active.
 
That also means you've set rooms 5 and 6 as HLC in PCAccess.
 
I just keep links 241 and 242 labeled as "Switch On Link" and "Switch Off Link" in PCAccess.  Those links are used by every switch to signal on/off.
The links needs to get transmitted as "Activate".  For the switch on/off that needs to be in the Transmit section of UPStart.
You either need to use the "Link Activator" button type or the custom type and change it to "Activate".
 
This is important for the switch on/off links.  The Omni is a bit more forgiving for the room links because those are reserved only for the particular rooms.
 

pete_c

Guru
Thank you Desert_AIP
 
I followed your original posts / JonW's and KB documentation to set this up.
 
Do you have unit 33 named "Main Hall" in PCAccess?
 
I called unit 33 something else for now in PCA.
 
Still working on dividing up rooms.
 
Adjusted PCA some tonight per your suggestions.
 
pca-1.jpg
 
The links needs to get transmitted as "Activate".  For the switch on/off that needs to be in the Transmit section of UPStart.
 
You either need to use the "Link Activator" button type or the custom type and change it to "Activate".
 
Went to Upstart and made the changes on the transmit section of the switch as picture.
 
upstart-1.jpg
 
 
Went to the Omnitouch 5.7e screen, reset it Omnitouch screen and watched hallway switch to watch the status as I toggled the switch on.
 
Status of switch SA US1-40 did not go on or off with toggle of nearby hallway switch.
 
Went back to Upstart to label links 241/242.  Noticed it wrote changes to all of the UPB switches.
 
Checking UPB software links variables and links status is changing fine.
 
Links241-242.jpg
 
Tested again with OmniTouch screen hallway switch on and off; still not seeing the status change on the switch in OmniTouch.
 

Desert_AIP

Senior Member
Have you tried using a trigger WHEN Main Hall Switch ON to test it?

The status in the 5.7 will take a few seconds.
It doesn't change from that link.
It changes automatically with the 6 room links.
You may need to program a UPB status request for the switch to update only on the link.

I can't remember if the Omni updates status in a room when it sees activity from those units.
I don't think so.
Just the six room links.
 

pete_c

Guru
Thank you Desert_AIP.
 
Only testing right now watching an OmniTouch 5.7e versus Omnitouch 5.7 and Snaplink next to an HLC SA programmed hallway switch.
 
Have you tried using a trigger WHEN Main Hall Switch ON to test it?
 
No I thought it would change status on it's own.
 
I can see the status of the switch change when I use the OmniTouch room control virtual switch on the Omnitouch 5.7e.
 
You may need to program a UPB status request for the switch to update only on the link.
 
I do not understand.   Do you mean put this in the automation programming lines?
 
 
I can't remember if the Omni updates status in a room when it sees activity from those units.

I don't think so.
 
Just the six room links
 
Using automation lines to turn on or off the specific UPB switch or room scene in HLC mode I do see the status change to on.  That said status remains on even though there are programming lines to shut off the specific switch and or the switch is shut off manually.
 
Tapping the switch on or off I do not see the status change on the Omnitouch or Snaplink application.
 

pete_c

Guru
This morning added (tried) one HAI UPB (HLC) switch via PCA. 
 
Using the guide / powerpoint presentation here:
 
Advanced Lighting Control
 
1 - reset HAI switch (1000 watt HAI dimmer) - 5 taps / 10 taps / 2 taps
2 - Went to PCA and added a new room called hallway test / new HAI switch calling it hallwayTest
 
HallwayTest.jpg
 
I have no HAI room controllers/ scene switches.
 
There is a configure option on the keypad and Omnitouch 5.7 console but none on the OmniTouch 5.7e console.
 

ano

Senior Member
When you just switch a HLC switch, it transmits either a 241 or 242 link, and from that information the OP2 can tell if a switch is on or off. The switch does NOT need to be set to transmit its status.  At least with Gen 2 + switches, when a link is sent, the packet also contains which switch is sending the link so that is how the OP2 knows.  I've never done this with SA switches, so if its NOT working, then its likely Gen 1 didn't contain the switch info in packets sent. I will play around with it.
 
Scenes are a bit different. With HLC, when the OP2 "sees" a scene being sent from a room or house controller, it first waits a delay, then it starts sending each switch in the room a status request, switch by switch. Eventually all switches report their status.  This is not an instant process. I would say, depending how many switches in a room, this process takes 30 to 60 seconds. So status isn't updated immediately but it takes a bit of time.  Its still pretty fast though.
 

pete_c

Guru
Thanks Ano. 
 
Original testing (from OP) UPB switch is an SA US1-40 which is probably less than 5 years old.
 
Went to testing using the HAI HLC switches I have (from box o UPB switches) this morning.
 
Made up a pluggable power cord attaching just the hot and neutral wires from the HAI switch.  This way I can move the HAI switch from one phase to another if I want.
 
The HAI UPB repeater, PCS phase coupler and SA phase coupler are on breakers such that I can shut any off or turn any on for my testing.
 
Only testing with HAI UPB PIMs here.  Do you have a PCS serial PIM connected to your OmniPro 2 panel these days?
 
HAI-Dimmer.jpg
 

ano

Senior Member
I'm still using the plain-old HAI PIM still. Then I use the serial PCS PIM with a PC. 
 
If your looking at HLC, there are some real helpful HLC commands in PC Access. Like you can trigger on a scene, but only a scene generated from a certain switch.  Normally with UPB, when a "link" appears on the powerline, and all switches respond, you know the link was send, but not by who. So lets say a switch activates the "party" link, then any switch that responds to "party" does its thing.  But the OP2 not only see's the "party" link, but also knows WHO sent the part link.  Its a bit like Caller ID.  Your phone is ringing, but you also know from who. 
 
What I don't know is if SA switches support that feature. HAI and PCS switches do. SA might also, but I'm not sure. 
 
This explains why in HLC you set ALL switches to send the 241 and 242 links.  You might wonder, what good is that?  But for the OP2, its all that's needed. 
 

ano

Senior Member
pete_c said:
This morning added (tried) one HAI UPB (HLC) switch via PCA. 
 
Using the guide / powerpoint presentation here:
 
Advanced Lighting Control
 
1 - reset HAI switch (1000 watt HAI dimmer) - 5 taps / 10 taps / 2 taps
2 - Went to PCA and added a new room called hallway test / new HAI switch calling it hallwayTest
 
attachicon.gif
HallwayTest.jpg
 
I have no HAI room controllers/ scene switches.
 
There is a configure option on the keypad and Omnitouch 5.7 console but none on the OmniTouch 5.7e console.
What REALLY makes HLC useful is the room and house controllers.  You you can use it without those, but that removes much of the benefit.  The idea is to put one or more room controllers in each room, and then some house controllers as well.  This is what converts UPB from a technology to a real system. 
 
In our house we almost never ever touch the switches. Instead we only touch the scene controller buttons. Then with the house controllers you can turn on and off entire rooms with one button.  I call my house controller my "wife finder" because I can look at it and see which room she is in. Very handy.   Turning on "lights" is so 1990's.  Scenes is where its at. :rockon:
 

pete_c

Guru
Thank you Ano.
 
Yes over the years updated the UPB switches to multiple paddle / dual load type switches to reduce the wall switch footprint a bit.
 
These are configured as scene controllers today sort of.
 
IE: TV room primary load then buttons for lamps in the room. 
 

Desert_AIP

Senior Member
Pete, I suggested using programming lines "When switch X is ON" to verify the Omni was seeing the 241/242 links properly.
If that is occurring, then it's not a transmission issue and you can focus on the behavior of the Omni in response to various link/unit combinations.
 
I will have to do a test or two to verify how it behaves since I don't use the 241/242 links in my setup.
 
What I suspect is the internal status tracking of the Omni is not updated based on the 241/242 links or other actions that are not one of the 6 assigned room links.
 

ano

Senior Member
Desert_AIP said:
I will have to do a test or two to verify how it behaves since I don't use the 241/242 links in my setup.

 
What I suspect is the internal status tracking of the Omni is not updated based on the 241/242 links or other actions that are not one of the 6 assigned room links.
If you are not using Links 241 & 242 then you are not using HLC because that is how HLC works.  Sure switches can report if they are on or off, and most switches have that option, but that isn't HLC.  As I said, when a switch sends a 241 or 242 link, embedded in the link is the switch # that sent the link, and that is how the OP2 knows which switch is on or off.  If you are just having switches report and that works, great, you just proved UPB works. 
 
Doesn't SA sometimes use link 241 and 242 as an internal link?  HAI probably designed HLC to use those links because they knew it wouldn't work with SA switches.
 
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