Phase coupler - Inverting?

[chrisdias]

It kind of sounds like you may have something arcing somewhere -- maybe a switch that is failing, or a bad lamp socket. Have you been able to isolate it to a particular circuit?

the thought of something arcing really got me nervous so i ripped the wall apart again, pulled off the switches and still the same noise problem. in fact, today i'm seeing noise on both phases where previously i've only seen noise on one. and the noisy phase is even more noisy now.

i put the switches back in, and i cannot even connect with upstart to any of my switches today.

this is too unpredictable. i have a 20yr old house, so maybe something built more recently would be better suited to this technology but if every day brings some new noise i dont know how i'll ever get it to work reliably.

i'm going to have to go to another techology, this is nuts.

 

[Steve]

I feel your pain Chris. UPB is great when you have just low noise. Even though Gen II stuff can work in the 20-25 noise range, anything over 5-10 is not good. I went through alot of the stuff you are. If you can find the culprit you can filter it or take some other action but you have to be able to isolate the problem. If you have SAI equipment pretty much give up if you have noise. But if you have Gen II stuff you can usually work it out. The whole house surge protectors filters will not help you (noise wise). If the noise is external to your house you're screwed but if you can identify it internally you can usually fix it. It sounds like its intermittent so its likely a device that is getting turned on or off. So look for things that go on/off at certain times and see if you can narrow it. I know for me my electronic cooktop and variable speed pool pump are issues.

I have PCS Gen II stuff as well as a PCS SPR and my UPB is pretty reliable now. It's still too hard to try and get the cooktop filtered. So I also use Jetstream If they ever fix their paddle problem I will likely use Jetstream for critical lighting and UPB for all the inline modules and less critical lights. There is just not alot of variety of JS products.

 

[chrisdias]

I feel your pain Chris. UPB is great when you have just low noise. Even though Gen II stuff can work in the 20-25 noise range, anything over 5-10 is not good. I went through alot of the stuff you are. If you can find the culprit you can filter it or take some other action but you have to be able to isolate the problem. If you have SAI equipment pretty much give up if you have noise. But if you have Gen II stuff you can usually work it out. The whole house surge protectors filters will not help you (noise wise). If the noise is external to your house you're screwed but if you can identify it internally you can usually fix it. It sounds like its intermittent so its likely a device that is getting turned on or off. So look for things that go on/off at certain times and see if you can narrow it. I know for me my electronic cooktop and variable speed pool pump are issues.

I have PCS Gen II stuff as well as a PCS SPR and my UPB is pretty reliable now. It's still too hard to try and get the cooktop filtered. So I also use Jetstream If they ever fix their paddle problem I will likely use Jetstream for critical lighting and UPB for all the inline modules and less critical lights. There is just not alot of variety of JS products.

i just read another post on upb about things sucking signals out of the wire. i might try that for fun.

i've got Gen II stuff from HAI, only 5 600w dimmers.

why do you say a whole house surge protector/filter wont help if the noise is coming from outside the house?

and, now my noise has subsided... nothing is changing!




chris

 

[Steve]

Doesn't matter if the noise is internal or external, it still gos thru the surge device/filter but the issue is the emi/rfi filtering on the surge device is different than the noise you see. Trust me, I have one. If it is truly outside, I have heard of firewall type devices that may be an option. But if you have some external suspects like your neighbors lap pool, see if your neighbor can turn it on/off while you monitor the line. Even though you may or may not be able to eliminate noise from a neighbor it would still be nice to know the source. Also how old is the neighborhood and the transformers? Sometimes an older transformer can cause the issue themselves. Do you know which neighbors share your transformer? If you have a plug in module and your PIM you can try it in a neighbors house, both one on your transformer and one without. That may help narrow down some more. I know its a real PITA and its easier to just give up and go with a wireless option, but there is no single wireless option that has a full suite of products plus the flexibility and programmabilty like you get with UpStart.

 

[cornutt]

Possibly it has to do with your HVAC. Have you tried checking whether your system(s) is/are running when you are seeing the noise?

Also, try this: Go to your electrical panel and make sure all of the breakers are well seated in the panel. Push them inwards and see if it feels like any of them are wanting to pop out. One other thing, since you said your house is 20 years old: If your panel is a Federal Pacific, you need a new one. Now.

 

[chrisdias]

I spent yesterday doing a detailed map of the power panel to see if I could really identify if the noise was internal or external to the house.

I shut off every breaker in the panel (except the main breaker) and then systematically went 1 by 1 through each breaker, turning it on and seeing exactly what was powered by that breaker.

For each breaker, I tested the noise level and idenfitied the phase it was on. To identify the phase, I tested for noise as well as visibility to one of two switches (i turned on a second breaker that powered the switch) through UPStart, which also showed same/other phase.

Everything was consistent. Either I was on the quiet phase or the noisy phase. When on the noisy phase, I ensured that there were no CFLs installed, nothing running, no HVAC, computers, fridges, etc. and I still had noise.

The one interesting thing that I did find was that if I was on a quiet phase and then turned on the 220v outlet that has the phase coupler plugged into it, I started to see noise from the other phase.

There was nothing else powered on the noisy phase from inside the house. I assume the only thing powered up on this 220 line is the single outlet. I can only conclude that the noise is coming in on one phase from outside or I've got something loose in the panel. The more I think about it, I find it odd that only one phase has noise since they are both running back to the transformer as far as I can tell, and it is consistent.

I think I'm going to have an electrician come out and spend some time looking at my panel to see if anything is wired incorrectly/loose. If that fails, I'm going to try out the Vizia RF line. RadioRA2 looks great, but its expensive and it looks like its not easy to get or program if you are a DIY person like myself.

 

[PaulD]

I think you said you had an older house. Have you ever had problems with mice or squirrels in the attic or walls? They like to chew on stuff and you may have some wire with insulation chewed off. I was in an older house about 1 year ago and we had intermittent problems with the telephone line. Upon inspection, we discovered that squirrels had chewed on the insulation on the main line feeding the house. Whenever it rained or we had humid weather, the line interference showed back up and I would lose my DSL signal. Phone company replaced the line and we had a perfect signal.
If you have underground lines, gophers may do the same trick.

 

[cornutt]

You may need to get the power company involved at this point. It may have to do with your service or with your meter. The reason I don't think it's coupling in from a neighbor's house is because, if it were going through the transformer, it would probably be appearing on both legs.

 

[chrisdias]

You may need to get the power company involved at this point. It may have to do with your service or with your meter. The reason I don't think it's coupling in from a neighbor's house is because, if it were going through the transformer, it would probably be appearing on both legs.

i was wondering the same thing - why one leg only...

Another thing i've been thinking about is this....

I have a plain old outdoor light at the end of the driveway, near the street. I'm not sure how long ago, but a few months back, the light went out. I changed the bulb and nothing. I changed the socket in the light, and still nothing. I brought the whole light thing inside, hooked it up to a plug, plugged it into the wall and low and behold the light worked.

I tested the voltage on the line at the street and i was getting voltage back at less than 110v. I forget what it was, something like 100 or 90v, and flakey.

There are actually two romex runs at the lamp post, but I only have one light out there. Only one is live, not sure what the other one does or goes. Right now, the wires are just capped with wire nuts and losely covered from the consistent Pacific Northwest winter drizzle.

I have moles. They like to dig in the front yard, along the driveway, where if i was an electrician i might have buried wires for outdoor lights.

I hate moles.

This light/line is on the noisy phase. This switch is one I have the most problems with.

That said, if this was the problem, I dont think I would see noise on the phase if that breaker is off. Seems like something I need to get fixed regardless.

I think I can someone qualified out here next thursday.

lets see where this takes us.
Chris

 

[cornutt]

I tested the voltage on the line at the street and i was getting voltage back at less than 110v. I forget what it was, something like 100 or 90v, and flakey.

Very, very interesting. If you saw this without a bulb screwed in, that's definitely a problem.

There are actually two romex runs at the lamp post, but I only have one light out there. Only one is live, not sure what the other one does or goes.

This suggests to me that the original run failed somehow, and someone put in a new one to replace it. Is there a switch inside the house for it? If you pull that switch out of its box and look around, you may find the end of an abandoned romex run in there.

A lot of DIY'ers use the wrong kind of romex when they do outdoor/buried runs. There's a specific kind of romex listed for this. You can tell it immediately when you see the end of the cable. Instead of having the individual wires wrapped in an outer plastic insulation jacket like regular romex does, the outer insulation is a solid block of plastic that the wires are embedded in. There is no air space inside the cables; the plastic fills it all.

I have moles. They like to dig in the front yard, along the driveway, where if i was an electrician i might have buried wires for outdoor lights.

This light/line is on the noisy phase. This switch is one I have the most problems with.

That said, if this was the problem, I dont think I would see noise on the phase if that breaker is off. Seems like something I need to get fixed regardless.

Moles are pretty good at chewing through regular romex if it's buried directly in the ground. I too am confused about why it continues when the breaker is off. Although, I suppose that if the insulation on the neutral was deteriorated and there was a ground difference potential at the point where it is touching, that might do it. The other possibility is that your electrical panel has lost its ground and your entire system is grounding (badly) through that circuit's neutral being in contact with ground.

 

[chrisdias]

i had a whole house surge protector with noise filtering installed today and it did absolutley nothing to help my noise problem. electrician checked out all of the connections in the panel and everything looks great.

i'm moving on to a different technology for my lights

 

[fcwilt]

i had a whole house surge protector with noise filtering installed today and it did absolutley nothing to help my noise problem. electrician checked out all of the connections in the panel and everything looks great.

i'm moving on to a different technology for my lights

Has anyone put a scope on your system to take a look at the nature of the noise? You could have an arcing connection somewhere other then your panel. I had a problem with an underground wire that was cut by some landscape worker - they "repaired" the cut wire with a wire nut and shoved it back in the dirt. Needless to say overtime the connection deteriorated.

 

[chrisdias]

i had a whole house surge protector with noise filtering installed today and it did absolutley nothing to help my noise problem. electrician checked out all of the connections in the panel and everything looks great.

i'm moving on to a different technology for my lights

Has anyone put a scope on your system to take a look at the nature of the noise? You could have an arcing connection somewhere other then your panel. I had a problem with an underground wire that was cut by some landscape worker - they "repaired" the cut wire with a wire nut and shoved it back in the dirt. Needless to say overtime the connection deteriorated.

nope - but the electrician did confirm that the wire out to the street light is probably busted somewhere under the ground. i guess an interesting test would be to move that circut over to the other phase and see if the noise moves.

 

[Steve]

Or just remove it from the breaker/panel temporarily. That would be a very easy test.

 

[chrisdias]

Or just remove it from the breaker/panel temporarily. That would be a very easy test.

I think I need to get the neutral off the grid as well, and I don't think taking out the breaker would do that - that would simply remove the hot.

Actually, now that i think about it, i could just disconnect the broken wire from the first lamp outside in the series which would terminat hot/ground/neutral at that light. the broken wires wouldn't be in the circut anywhere at that point.

I still think I'm going jetstream, but I'll try it this weekend anyway.

chris