Phone line trouble reporting

[newalarm]

I have an ELK M1g with VOIP phone as first way of reporting to my monitoring company. I use cellular as a backup. How does the M1G report when the phone line is cut and how long does it take?
 
Second question, I set the Voip reporting to two dial attempts, and set the cellular to 2 attempts also. Does this seem right? Should I extend the amount of tires on cellular to the max (8 I think)? My thoughts for only 2 attempts on VOIP line is that I want to shift to the cell quickly if the line is down. Not sure how long dial attempts take.
 
Thanks.

 

[Del91574]

Here's the issue, not many people consider this.....
 
With VOIP, the ATA generally will provide voltage no matter if there's a functioning connection to the net or if there is latency. I've experienced this on Arris ATA's specifically, as they're the ones most commonly used by the CATV companies, however I would wager that the lesser consumer units perform close to the same. I don't use VOIP or connect an alarm to it wherever possible just because of these reasons. The panel's line supervision will never detect an issue. This would be compounded if you have a dialer capture style cell or the popular DIY option here, the HAI C3...it'll never switch over because it's always going to believe the line is active and present as long as voltage is there.

Has it improved over the years, sure, but you can't reengineer the wheel. VOIP and alarms have issues which everyone turns a blind eye to in the name of the triple play or saving $X. Even the enterprise VOIP systems have issues (granted, with failovers, and contingencies) but how many people say "It works almost like POTS". That's the million dollar statement.
 
Dial attempts should be 8 IMHO...that's what other panels out there have as a default value. At 2...what happens if your CS receiver is getting heavy traffic or there's a failed attempt, no matter what the reason. 2 attempts, while it seems like a reasonable amount, would not be my choice. If anything, I'd change the cell to primary with the VOIP as the backup, but that's my opinion.

 

[newalarm]

Thanks DEL,
 
I did not think of the dial attempts as the line being busy. That changes everything and is a great point. I thought that it would try to dial and could not get a line for a technical reason, so would try again. What happens if the line is dead. Does the M1G try to dial again, or does it immediately go to the backup?
 
I think you are right, Cellular should be the first option. I will look at changing next time I make some changes to the system.
 
So both primary, and backup should be set to 8 attempts?

 

[Del91574]

Can't remember if the M1 has true dialtone detection off the top of my head,I don't think so, but basically speaking, a dial attempt is any time the panel goes off hook, dials and doesn't get a handshake or kissoff, so sometimes even if there is a functioning line, if the message doesn't get through, it'll hang up and try again.

I haven't had to listen with a butt set on the M1, but on others usually there's some pausing and downtime, not to mention the 10-11 digits for most standard CS numbers to dial using DTMF. In some cases, the dialing, waiting and all that for 8 attempts can be 15 minutes or so.
 
In the specific of a burg panel, it'll dial or attempt on the primary until there's no attempts left or if the panel knows there's no line there (line cut monitor) it won't even try the primary.
 
I can't remember if the M1 will look for a line if no POTS dialer is programmed or not or if it's a function of the RC for telco line fault....can't say I've ever had a panel not connected to POTS or VOIP/Digital voice as a backup to a Uplink....and I use those over dialer capture units on the M1 because of the bidirectional supervision, though it means a more difficult time in latching a trouble condition on the M1 (relay to zone) so the end user is made aware of an issue with the Uplink or serial on the M1 keypad.
 
In your case, with the VOIP, I might keep that at a minimum and then cell, but I'd definately change the sequence unless you can prove the voltage on the ATA goes away when no network connection is present. It still doesn't address any latency, but it's still not a best practice.
 
 
And thinking back to some heated discussions regarding the HAI C3...that is really a worrisome situation if you have the C3 in line with your phone service and it's VOIP.....the C3 is never going to be switched "on" and used if the voltage is there from the ATA and there's no true dialtone detection on the panel. Just a thought to those out there, even though I did provide a host of reasons why I don't like the C3 as a secure option.

 

[tmbrown97]

I would sure hope there's dial tone detection - there are plenty of line conditions in which a call wouldn't go through despite voltage being present.
 
The ones to really be careful of are any sort of dial capture like an ABN, because those will trick the Alarm into thinking that it successfully transmitted (so it won't go to backup methods), then the capture unit tries to get the signal through - if it fails for some reason, the M1 will never know and will never go to its backup method like a cell unit.

 

[Del91574]

For some reason, I don't think there's dial tone detection as a default feature. This came up recently at an account I have an EZ8 at....the old owners had POTS and the new owners got VOIP/CATV phones and the panel was happy but only reported a comm fail, not a phone line fail. You'd be amazed at how many panels don't have real dialtone detection.
 
At least in the case, with POTS and a signal not going through, at least when the panel fails to get a handshake or kissoff, eventually it will result in a comm fail or fallover to the backup after exhausting the attempts, irregardless of if there's voltage present but no dialtone or a noisy line.

But yes, an ABN would be the worst option for a primary communications route, no way for feedback to the panel. A dialer capture cell used as backup connected to a VOIP line would be just as bad...unless the VOIP's voltage disappears on any network fault.
 
FWIW, a large national had this as part of an issue on a residential system that resulted in what the industry believes to be a settlement around $25 million.....of course there were other issues with the install, not to mention the subscriber was murdered, but this did come up in the forensic investigation of the install.
 
*UPDATE*
I called the guys at Elk and asked a few questions. The line supervision is strictly voltage based. If you want the panel to do a dial tone detect prior to attempting, you put a D prefix on the phone number. I haven't tested, so I can't confirm what it does and how it does it.

 

[newalarm]

So, in other words, if the coax cable going to modem (phone and internet) box, the modem box could possibly still provide voltage to the ELK, and the ELK would think everything is ok?
 
Would adding the D only make a difference if the ELK dials right? ie: when there is an alarm?
 
Does the M1G do a daily test call to tell CS to ensure all is good with system?

 

[tmbrown97]

You set the frequency of the test call - but yeah I'd definitely recommend a daily check in.
 
And yes - if you have some sort of ATA or Vonage or Cable Modem w/Phone Jack, it's quite likely that it'll provide voltage on the line and sometimes even dialtone - and fail only upon an attempt to dial out (fast busy, etc).  For that matter, there are certain states of a POTS line that'll show the voltage as well, but *most* of the time, the dialtone is not there.
 
With POTS it's more likely that, if the line is cut, you'll get the status issue; general line trouble should be detected by the daily CS call - however, if someone cuts your Cable or Internet (just before breaking in) killing your Vonage, then that's a situation that's more likely to give a false reading to the M1... even worse if using any form of dial capture unit, because the M1 will never know it didn't succeed in its communication.

 

[Del91574]

The Arris ones do none of the above...no network or latency, no dial tone, but full voltage. No feedback. In my state and the surrounding 6, it seems like the CATV guys have stuck with Arris as their choice. I can't comment about ATT's Uverse and their RG or FIOS. I haven't tried to simulate a network loss on them, but I'd say the worst offender would be the VOIP for providing voltage with no service over POTS.
 
For clarification, a dial capture ATA (belive Nextalarm was the worst offender) connected to the M1 would be the worst possible scenario.

The next worst would be a HAI C3 (it'll never switch over to cell if voltage is present), followed by the dialer capture cellulars (same inherent issue, will never switch over when voltage on lines) if they are connected with the VOIP as a passthru.

 

[tmbrown97]

Just to clarify, I think the dial-capture units are referred to as ABN's aren't they?  Maybe they're ATA's too, but there are certainly ATA's that are NOT dial-capture units - so the M1 could really communicate through one direct to a CS, but all the other concerns above still hold true - it may show a live line when it's not; hopefully the panel would realize eventually that it's not getting through and fall back to cellular if present.