Polarity reversal questioin

cnacht

Member
I am going to buy the ESL541NCSXT smokes and Place a ESL541NCSXTE at the end of each zone. To make the sounders all sound when activated, I need a polarity reversal module. In my research I can't determine the difference between the ESL 405-03 and the ESL 405-05, thus I don't know which to use.
Any help would be great
Thanks,
Chad
 
the difference between the ESL 405-03 and the ESL 405-05

I an looking at the same questions for my new System Sensor units.

Don't know the ESL product line, but it says here...

http://www.homecontrols.com/homecontrols/p...ring_config.pdf

...that the 405-05 will do a simple reversal of the smoke supply, while the 405-03 will actually disconnect the smoke supply and substitute the "bell" output current to power the sounders in an alarm condition. This might make sense in situations where the bell output is able to provide ample sounding current, while the smoke detector supply cannot (?). Maybe more important, it means that you cannot use the 405-03 where the alarm trigger is not intended to provide power.
 
Thanks for the reply
I guess I don't understand which situation I would be in. I am using an ELk M1G panel. I am going to power my smokes with an auxiliary power supply(elk-PD9HD powered by elk-P142). If I powered them through the security panel, apparently all the wire to keypads would need to be fire rated.
Based on this would I need to use the 405-03 or am I wrong. Maybe I don't have enough knowledge of the circuits to understand.
I was also looking at System sensor, but I want the supervised relay built into the smoke.
Thanks again,
Chad
 
...I was also looking at System sensor, but I want the supervised relay built into the smoke.
Thanks again,
Chad

Why do you want the relay built in to the detector? If it is separate then you can use 1 standard type of detector and keep a spare that will work in any location. If you use special smokes at the end of line for each zone you have to stock 2 different types of spares.
 
Never thought of it like that. Although I am a DIYr and might not be stocking any extras. Are the supervised relays small enough to fit in the round gang box with the smoke detector.
Chad
 
In general you would use the 405-03 for most installations.

Yes, but...

The key decision you have to make is "how are you going to trigger the reversing relay?"

With the M1G you have several options...

1. You can use Output 2 in Voltage mode. With this choice, you would use the 405-03. But, this also means that your smoke detector sounders are also your burglar alarm -- the smokes will sound off for all M1 alarms. Also, to attach other things to Output 2, like an outdoor siren, you cannot use speakers, you have to use self-contained siren unit(s). Current on this output is limited to one amp, so tally up everything you are planning to attach, knowing that it will be driving all of your smoke detector sounders.

2. You can use a relay output, such as Output 3, or one relay on a M1RB, as your trigger. Here you have to write a rule so that a fire alarm activates the output you choose. Since you already have a power supply for your smoke detectors, for simplicity this would lead you to the 405-05, wiring its trigger contacts to the M1 Aux power (for example) through the relay. With this arrangement the power load on the M1 is minimal (only driving the relay during an alarm), and again be aware of the total draw of the smokes during an alarm and of the capacity of your power supply, which is supplying all of the alarm power.

3. You can use one of the 12 volt low-power outputs, such as Output 7. This would be the just the same as #2 above, but simpler because the output itself would have enough drive (most likely) for the 405-05 relay.
 
So it sounds like I would be better off using the 405-05 if I am using the elk-PD9HD powered by elk-P142 to provide power to the smokes. This way I would be relieving the M1G of any significant power requirements.
What I still don't understand is what powers what and when.
In a non-alarm state is power to the smokes is provided from the PD9HD?
In an alarm state, is power also provided from the PD9HD or does it need to come from the relay on the M1G that is connected to the 405-5?
Would output 7 have enough power to activate the 405-5 and do what it needs to do with 9 of the above mentioned smoke detectors?
Sorry for all the questions. I am starting to think that I bit off more than I can chew.
Thanks for all the help,
Chad
 
It would simplify your installation if you could avoid using external power, but you seem to have reasons for doing so.

Here is what I am planning to do --

- First understand that I am not seeking a UL-rated system, so I am not observing the UL recommendations on alarm times, etc. However, I do pay very close attention to current loads and other safety parameters.

- I have one zone of eight 4-wire smoke detectors, each having a maximum of 50ma "maximum alarm current", so the total is 400ma worst case. This is within the SAUX capacity of 1 amp. No external power; all smoke power is from the M1 under all circumstances.

- There is one System Sensor EOL supervision relay at the end of the line. It is already there.

- Reversing relay is the System Sensor RRS-MOD. I will trigger this relay with Output 7 and an automation rule (and a second rule to shut off, I suppose). The RRS-MOD draws 25mA maximum and Output 7 is rated for up to 50mA.

- I will power the smokes from the SAUX power output in BOTH the normal (or "standby") mode and alarm mode. This is because, in normal mode, I want to keep the "reset smoke power" function that is native to the M1 (i.e., the M1 will cut power briefly on SAUX when I do a reset). And in alarm mode, I don't care where the power comes from, so for simplicity I will just use SAUX -- I know the sounders are within the current limit, and there is no reason not to. To implement this design, I will connect SAUX to BOTH of the power input terminals on the RRS relay.

- This design leaves the Output 2 siren function free to use however I want to (I have horn speakers in siren mode and I am not changing this). This siren will be in addition to the smoke sounders in a fire alarm.

Just theory at the moment. Though I have spent considerable time in planning and learning, I may have overlooked something. My installation is simpler than yours but I hope this helps. (And anyone who sees something I am doing wrong, please advise!)

Dave
 
It is starting to make more sense. Thanks.
I am keeping the smoke detectors on separate power supply because if I powered them from the ELk panel my smokes wouldn't pass code. Apparently if I have the smokes connected to the elk panel I would have to use fire rated cable to the keypads and possibly other componants. Apparently whoever makes the code is worried about one of the other eliments shorting the panel in a fire situation thus causing the smoke alarms to fail.
 
Apparently if I have the smokes connected to the elk panel I would have to use fire rated cable to the keypads and possibly other componants.

This is not a requirement where I live. I checked with my friend, who is the town Fire Marshall.

If this is a common requirement under building or fire codes, I have to believe that many of our colleagues on this board would have the same issue.
 
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