Pool equipment

[jingai]

We have several pieces of pool equipment we'll be replacing sometime soon (blown heater, rusted breaker box, failed air switch, etc). When we do get around to replacing it all, we'd like to include some HA functionality that will work with our existing Insteon + Indigo setup.

Primarily, we'd like to be able to, via Insteon:

* Control pool and spa heat (on, off, temperature set),
* Control pool and spa pumps, separately, so I can set the runtimes via software instead of an external timer,
* Control spa jets,
* Adjust the valves for the spa to shut off/turn on the waterfall overflow,
* Monitor pressures of both the pool system and our caretaker cleaning system.

We have two Jandy electronic valves already that were previously controlled by our pool heater, but the heater itself has failed (numerous times, so we've just decided to replace it).

Any recommendations on pool heaters or anything else that can help us achieve what we're looking for? Cost will likely be a factor, but at the same time we'd like to do it all "right" this time around, so any and all thoughts are appreciated. Reliability is a HUGE factor -- we're sick of calling people out at an average of $500/visit to fix the same stuff over and over (namely the heater)..

-j

 

[JonW]

You really want a dedicated pool control system that you then interface to the rest of the HA system via a serial interface. Both Jandy and Pentair have nice systems that can do this. I personally use all Jandy equipment - including the control panel, heater, pumps, switches, valves, etc. All of my equipment is now at 6 years old and I have never needed to have a service call. The only piece I have replaced was the salt cell, but those only have about a 5 year life span. The nice thing with the Jandy stuff is that all the components talk to each other over the keypad bus, so it simplifies the hookup and control. This includes the main control panel/breaker box, in-house LCD, spa-side controller, serial interface converter, heater & salt system. If you don't want to run wiring into the house for a control screen, you can always opt for their wireless controller.

You can purchase this and do your own retrofit without needing to use a contractor or pool company.

 

[jingai]

Couple of questions:

1) Is the "Power Center" a replacement for my existing breaker box, or something I need in addition to it?

2) Do you absolutely have to purchase a keypad if all I want is control via my computer?

Thanks for the reply!
-j

 

[klindy]

Couple of questions:

1) Is the "Power Center" a replacement for my existing breaker box, or something I need in addition to it?

2) Do you absolutely have to purchase a keypad if all I want is control via my computer?

Thanks for the reply!
-j

I've got all Jandy equipment as well. The "Power Center" is the replacement for the existing breaker box. In it are spaces for breakers for the individual equipment and a space for their control module (at the top of the box). All high and low voltage wiring goes into that box.

At least with the Jandy equipment you need the inside panel (LCD) for basic programming. That doesn't mean it needs to be installed permanently but you will need it hooked up somewhere. If you don't want to in the house, install it in the garage or somewhere out of the way. The inside panel comes with the control module as part of a kit.

All the Jandy equipment communicate on a common 4-wire RS-485 bus. All my equipment - controller, salt chlorinator, heater, serial interface - are all interconnected on the same 4 wires in parallel. This gives me the ability to control and monitor the heater, pumps/lights/blower, and salt chlorinator from the inside panel and, with the serial interface, I can monitor and control everything with CQC on my PC.

Hope that helps...

 

[jingai]

I've got all Jandy equipment as well. The "Power Center" is the replacement for the existing breaker box. In it are spaces for breakers for the individual equipment and a space for their control module (at the top of the box). All high and low voltage wiring goes into that box.

Ahh, that's good to know. I'm trying to get a feel for what this will cost to implement.

So you just put your existing breakers into the Jandy Power Center then, right?

And, does the power center control the electronic valve actuators, if you have them? We have two Jandy actuators currently that are controlled by the heater itself, but the heater is broken so when we go to replace it, do we need to buy another Jandy/Laars unit? Or can the "power center" control the actuators and work with any other brand of heater?

I ask because we've had no end of bad luck with our Laars LX400. Pressure switches have gone out like half a dozen times, along with the PCB 4 times, the gas valve 3 times.. and now the unit is completed rusted out (on the inside, too) after just 7 years..

At least with the Jandy equipment you need the inside panel (LCD) for basic programming. That doesn't mean it needs to be installed permanently but you will need it hooked up somewhere. If you don't want to in the house, install it in the garage or somewhere out of the way. The inside panel comes with the control module as part of a kit.

I don't mind having the panel, I was just wondering if I could do without it (to save $$$).

All the Jandy equipment communicate on a common 4-wire RS-485 bus. All my equipment - controller, salt chlorinator, heater, serial interface - are all interconnected on the same 4 wires in parallel. This gives me the ability to control and monitor the heater, pumps/lights/blower, and salt chlorinator from the inside panel and, with the serial interface, I can monitor and control everything with CQC on my PC.

So, if I wanted to use the serial link to my PC, it connects to the keypad in the house? If I chose a wireless keypad, would it still connect there, or would I have to run a wire from the pool equipment to my PC?

Thanks again,
-j

 

[JonW]

The serial link is an interface box that attaches to the RS485 keypad bus. You could do this either at the keypad location or the power center location or even somewhere in between. It just has to be on the bus somewhere.

Yes, the control center controls all the valve actuators (JVA's ). If you're looking to save money on the keypad, you can get an "all button" version instead of the "One Touch" LCD screen version. Check out Jandy.com for what options they have. There are a lot of discount places on the web to buy the equipment including Ebay & Craigslist. I've seen local pool builders selling the equipment at reduced rates on Craigslist many times.

 

[klindy]

The "Power Center" is simply the breaker panel and communications hub. The Power Center itself is basically a bare bones box you put various components into. The breaker panel portion accepts Square D "QO" breakers (at least - it may accept others). Here's a link to the Jandy webpage -

http://www.jandy.com/html/products/controls/powercenters.php

Inside the power center (besides the breakers and high voltage connections) you also install the control ("Power Center Bezel") of your choice. The cheapest is the Aqualink RS All Button which also comes in various configurations depending on what equipment you need to control. I'm guessing your only looking at an RS4 which would control a couple valves, a pump, a heater and chlorinator pretty easily. The RS6, RS8, etc. simply have more 'relay/valve' connections (and consequently more buttons to accommodate the low voltage relays). I have the RS8 but I have 4 valves, two pumps (with room for a 3rd) a heater, a blower for the spa, salt chlorinator. 3 lights and a fiber optic light and I use it to control some lights on my fence. Jandy also have various indoor displays (which still use the same or similar "Power Center Bezels" [basically their outdoor control]) including wireless, "One Touch" (fancy LCD display), etc.

http://www.jandy.com/html/products/controls/

The "Power Center Bezel" and PCB (printed circuit board) is installed inside the Power Center (in a pre-punched/configured location at the top of the can). The Power Center Bezel/PCB is where you attach the valves and any relays to control your equipment. The valves are direct plug in to the PCB and the relays control the pumps, lights, blower, etc. Also, attached to the PCB is the communications link (4 wire RS-485). This link 'talks' to the indoor panel and serial communications adapter (which in turn talks to you PC/software). This same communications link also loops to the heater (I have a Jandy LXi 400 which is likely similar to what you have) and the salt chlorinator.

The PCB also contains the EPROM which holds the various self contained programs you enter into the system.

The serial communications adapter connects to the 4wire RS-485 bus and has a cable with a DB-9 connector which connects to your RS-232 port on your PC. The protocol accesses anything on the system which is installed. Either way, it needs to be physically connected to the pool control system AND the PC. Because of the limitations of RS-232, I have a long run of cat5e from the power center to the RS-232 adapter and then connect the adapter directly to the PC with it's 2-3' cable. I've had no communications issues at all.

The Jandy controller is pretty powerful in the sense that you can program anything connected. You can also have several "programs" which can serve as "winter"/"summer" or whatever programs. I use CQC to connect to the system so things like 'on-times' for the lights and 'off-times' for the pump can be determined by sunset, etc. Likewise, I can use CQC to adjust the salt chlorinator and pump run times to minimize run time based on out door temperature and sun exposure (I haven't programmed this yet). The lights also use a 'on-off-on' sequence to get to the light color desired which I can (again not programmed yet) use CQC to time. These are the types of programming that the Jandy controller can't do on it's own but can be handled with the PC. The controller does have a 'freeze control' program which basically starts the pump after the temperature gets below 34 degree F. Once on it stays on until it warms up. One of the other advanced programming ideas I had was to use CQC to start-stop the pump on some timed sequence rather than just start it and leave it run.

The basic, core programming however resides in the pool controller. In the event of a PC failure or whatever the 'regularly scheduled program' will kick in as expected.

I bought the equipment and installed it myself. Much of it was bought on e-bay at quite a discount. I did have a few issues to work through because of my unfamiliarity of the equipment and a fairly 'tight-lipped' tech support department but the answers were out there. That said, all the issue I had were with the salt chlorinator and some electrical issues caused by my own carelessness. The core components have worked well without any problems.

Again, hope this helps clarify...

 

[jingai]

Wow, thanks for the great information!

So, here's what I have:

* One filter pump
* One blower for the spa jets
* One string of low voltage lighting
* Gas heater
* Water spills over from the spa to the pool

From what you've told me, it seems I'd need:

* Sub Panel Power Center 6614 (which, from what I can tell, includes space for the breakers)
* RS-PS4 bezel (which includes two valve actuators, right?)
* My choice of keypad(s)
* PC Link 7270
* New gas heater (will any brand work?)

That sound about right?

Also, before I do embark on this.. I'd really like to figure out why my equipment is rusting out. Both the breaker box and gas heater are literally turning to dust after just 7 years. Does anyone know what might be causing this?

Thanks!
-j

 

[JonW]

You would probably be better off just buying an RS6 or RS8 package instead of the individual components.

You need to find the cause of your rust. Most likely it is a PH imbalance over time. Do you have a chemical feeder system? If so, is it before the heater or after?

I have a 6 year old Jandy/Laars heater and there is not a spot of rust in or on the unit.

 

[jingai]

You would probably be better off just buying an RS6 or RS8 package instead of the individual components.

You need to find the cause of your rust. Most likely it is a PH imbalance over time. Do you have a chemical feeder system? If so, is it before the heater or after?

I have a 6 year old Jandy/Laars heater and there is not a spot of rust in or on the unit.

We have a chlorine feeder that we feed with chlorine "pucks" as needed. Usually 3 at a time in the summer and 1 or 2 all other times.

We did have a pool service for about 2 years though, so it's possible they weren't managing the chemicals correctly. Stupidly, I only verified their work for the first few months of service.

But, it seems odd that it would rust out our breaker box too? There is no water going through it, obviously.

-j

 

[Steve]

Be careful with the chlorine feeder and tablets. Most of the tablets are 50% stabilizer and you can easily over stabilize the pool. When your stabilizer gets too high (especially over 100ppm) the chlorine becomes ineffective and you are then susceptible to algae outbreak and other problems. There are also debates about health consequences at high levels. I would either find non stabilized tablets (may be tough) or discontinue their use. Sure they are somewhat convenient but safety/effectiveness is more important. If you really want convenience along with safety and effectiveness look at a salt chlorinator. Id this is your first pool and you want to learn how to take care of it yourself easily then go to Troublefree Pool and read through the Pool School. Invest in a good FAS/DPD test kit like the Taylor K-2006 and you can easily take care of your pool quickly and easily using alot of standard stuff rather than going to the pool store. With pools, less is more.

 

[pete_c]

In FL we did a tear down and put in a new pool. One of the old pool features was solar heating which served the pool and the house. It worked well and we only turned on the gas heater in ther winter. Because of the new roof (terracotta) steep pitch we did not re-install the old solar heater.

I have yet to automate via HA server-device (its been 10 years now) the pool and am curious how well the automation has worked for folks and suggested how much and how little and manual overrides of said automation.

We've not had to replace / repair any parts of the pool infrastructure to date. The neighbor did have an issue with a leaky gas tank for the pool heater after it was installed. The debacle caused some issues with 3 or 4 of the neighbors.

 

[JonW]

I have yet to automate via HA server-device (its been 10 years now) the pool and am curious how well the automation has worked for folks and suggested how much and how little and manual overrides of said automation.

The great thing with adding a serial interface to the Jandy or Pentair (maybe other) systems is that they run stand-alone for all normal scheduled activity and you utilize the serial interface for all of your on-demand type actions. No difference than if you wanted to heat your spa. You would go to the keypad and do an on-demand type action by pressing a button or two and turn the spa on. With the serial interface, you can set that up through a macro on the HA controller. With the HA controller though, you could be sitting out at dinner somewhere and decide you wanted to go in the spa when you got home and you could trigger it remotely. Sure, you could actually run your whole pool system from your HA controller and not buy a separate pool control system, but I still feel it is better to have a stand-alone pool control system doing the primary work.

 

[pete_c]

Yes, I have the spa whirlpool on one side of the pool kind of elevated with water going to the main pool. The heating of the water though is separated for the spa and their are exposed to the weather buttons on the side of the spa and remote control for it. All of the pool devices sit on one side of the home and have been exposed to the weather except for the controller box. Getting a serial cable to the controller box (walls are all masonry) I would have to tap into the adjacent telco copper cluster of wires. I personally would like the hardwire serial approach over a powerline approach to said endeavor.

Yes it would be nice to remote control to it via my telephone before getting home.

jingai - do you have the ability / infrastructure to add hard wired serial devices to the area where your pool stuff is at or just powerline interfaces?

 

[jlegault]

informative thread! I'm about to start hooking up my RS12 to homeseer.

There are two interfaces from jandy, the 7270-Pc automation, and the 7620-home automation. Which one do I need? The 7270 is about $100, while the 7620 is 5-6x. All I can tell is that the 7620 gives you greater control over the RS232 protocol to help interface with different automation systems, something i may not need on a pc?

Thanks for the help guys!