Practical Insteon HW reliability examples please

[hokee]

I'm a techie new to Insteon/X-10 and I've been reading the SH, AccessHA, and Cocoontech forums for months to learn how I want to experiment in Linux (thanks Neil at LinuxHA.com). To get some hands on, I just bought a used USB Insteon PLC (2414U) from Digger and a X-10 firecracker kit from Craigslist. They are neat, in my hw price range, provide feedback (Insteon), and I've not had problems yet (I know their basic).

My ideal HA system would allow me to actuate external CFL lighting fixtures (read Relay vice Dimmer), change thermostat settings (controlling a heatpump), and notify me of alarms (smoke/CO detectors, water sensors, window & door sensors, external temp, etc.) remotely (via phone and internet). I want to do it in Linux for the challenge and to contribute to the open source HA world. I want to do all this at a minimal HW cost. (I know I'm dreaming and that you get what you pay for. My problem is I have some time and skills, but not money to dedicate to HA.)

Obstacles I've observed in the forums:
1. CFLs can interfere with power line signals and I have a house full of them.
2. Insteon thermostats and sensors are expensive and available from limited vendors.
3. Wall switches and other Insteon hardware have a reputation of not being reliable.

I think I can overcome obstacle 1 with time and experience. I hope to use ingenuity to control the cheaper available sensors from a low power embedded linux platform (maybe NSLU2) for obstacle 2. I am concerned about investing money due to obstacle 3, because it's the furthest from my control and against the advice or many forum posts.

Whew...My questions finally:
A. Are there any Switchlinc or Togglelinc Relay type Insteon/X-10 devices that I could expect to last 5 years without maintenance?
B. What practical experience do you have with saving energy and thus money due to your HA.

(I would prefer a discussion of successful implementation, as I can find failure/problem reports from many other sources. I know many Insteon products are <2 years old, but I'd like your insight into how the best ones work.)

Thanks for your consideration. I know my constraints/desires may be a bit demanding. I appreciate the wisdom you all continually share in these forums. Keep it up and Happy Holidays.

 

[MikeB]

1 - While I have heard of CFLs (mostly older CFLs) interfering with powerline communications, I haven't experienced it in my home. I have some of the cheapest CFLs I could find, and my powerline communications are good. Over time I've replaced some with incandescents, but only because I wanted dimming capabilities, or did not like the "color" of the light put off by my CFLs.

2 - Insteon thermostats are not yet available, though they are rumored to be in development. I've had good luck integrating RF X10 devices (like motion sensors) with my Insteon setup.

3 - The decora style paddle switches (SwitchLincs) seem to have had a relatively high rate of failure. SmartLabs has determined the most common cause of failure to be a tact switch, which they have upgraded and are shipping in new products. I have 70 or so Insteon devices in my home, and I've had maybe 3 or 4 switch failures. 2 or 3 due to, I believe, failed tact switches. Most of my switches are between 1 and 1.5 years old. I have had no lamp or appliance module failures. My understanding is that the ToggleLincs have not had any abnormal switch failures.

A - Hopefully they all will now, but only time will tell. I don't think the new tact switches have been shipping long enough to know for certain how they will stand up over time. But my experience with the original switches has been good enough (knock on wood) that I've been happy.

B - None. While I'd like to think I save some money with closet/bathroom/vent timers, scheduling outdoor lighting to turn off and not stay on all night, etc..... I probably don't. Any money I save with light conservation is probably offset by all the other cool additional things I do with lighting. I think I will be able to conserve once I automate my HVAC however.

Good luck!!

 

[gatchel]

1- I have several CFL's on insteon and have had no problems to this point.

A. That is like asking how long a piece of string is or how many miles your car will last until the 1st major overhaul. Your mileage may vary. I would suggest you invest in the 5 year warranty upgrade with each device. I hate extended warranties.

B. Absolute no savings as of yet. I saved more money by installing CFL's where ever I can stand them, anywhere from $15 to $25 per month.

 

[Digger]

I dont think I have ever heard anyone say a Togglelinc has died (not that I have heard everything). If you like the style you may want to take that into consideration.

 

[KenM]

Historical reference:

Back when I was using INSTEON 100%, I at one time had good communications. I started having problems with stored timers firing when I had a generic brand of of a CFL switched on. What that means to me is that the INSTEON PLC can and sometimes will 'choke and die' when CFLs are on. I am now 100% Z-Wave and happily using CFLs any place I want, for over a year. Ha.



Ken

 

[BLH]

I have Insteon ApplianceLinc Modules controlling CFLs all over the house. Only one brand I have had has caused BIG problems and that maybe since I have both X10 and Insteon devices. The U Lighting America SDS23 Dimmable makes noise that actually causes my ACT CR134 Repeater to send false X10 M13 codes or J Status request when the INSTEON signal mixed with the noise from the CFL. Cure was SD23s had to go!

 

[cliffs]

I have experienced about a 75% failure rate with the SmartHome Insteon switches, seems like they are not
made very well mechanically. I have also had problems with circuit failure, they just won't recognize
and remote signals although the local switch still works. I did have a couple replaced under warranty, but
they have failed too.

I noticed that on the SmartHome web site many of the original part numbers have been withdrawn.

I tried using the Insteon mode and they never would link properly and had to resort to using th x10
mode.

I can't say I could recommend Insteon units to anyone as this is the worst example of quality
control I have ever seen.

Cliff s

 

[linuxha]

I'm a techie new to Insteon/X-10 and I've been reading the SH, AccessHA, and Cocoontech forums for months to learn how I want to experiment in Linux (thanks Neil at LinuxHA.com).

What software are you using (besides my driver)? I also recommend that you get the latest driver. I found that the original driver was dropping some characters so I increased the buffer to 4k.

IPLC (CM15A, CM19A) driver

To properly compile it cd to iplc/driver/linux2.6/ and then make iplc . I need to update the web page to correctly reflect that (currently my web pages are a real mess).

 

[TonyNo]

I have 15 Insteon devices and have lost two LampLinc's (maybe the load took them out; a halogen torch light). I also have one SwitchLinc that does not see quick taps. All else has been/is fine. No CFL's here.

 

[Herdfan]

3. Wall switches and other Insteon hardware have a reputation of not being reliable.

I am concerned about investing money due to obstacle 3, because it's the furthest from my control and against the advice or many forum posts.

Except in a couple of limited cases, SH has been willing to swap out devices that failed. Now what constitues a failure is up for debate. Firmware upgrades are not failures, but in some cases do warrant a free swap. Outright failures arereplaced without question 99.9% of the time.

So if you are willing to add a few $ for the extended 7 year warranty, you should be good to go from a financial perspective. Now you will have to use your own time and effort replacing any failed devices, so take that into consideration.

As for the extended warranty, as far as I can tell, SH has no way of knowing which devices are covered and which are not. Think of this however you like.

Disclaimer: I had a house full of Insteon, but due to high failure rates from both the aforementioned paddle issue a previous resistor issue, I gave up on Insteon and now have a full Lutron home.

 

[Mike]

I got into Insteon early on and have had to swap out a lot of switches. All were swapped without an issue. The later ones (in my experience) seem to be much better. I also expected some issues getting involved with the initial release of a new technology. Perhaps I saw a bit more than expected, but Smarthome has rectified any issues I had (it seems some others may have had different experiences).

The warranty is a good investment.

I did not employ them intending to save money. When you look at the cost of the switches it would probably be a long payback. The exception may be outside lights that were previously on all night. Even there, a bigger savings would be using CFL (most likely).

I could be wrong, butI liked the look of the switches, the control and did not expect the investment to pay for itself over any reasonable period of time. In fact I use certain lights more since they are controlled (christmas lights and lighted topiary's are automatically turned on for example).

 

[hokee]

Thank you all! Great responses, and no rants. I'm travelling for the holidays, so my responses will be sporadic. I hope to sit down and develop a good follow-up as I have time.

Thanks

 

[pkoslow]

I work with Insteon, UPB & Lutron and have lots of experience with the older X10 stuff (haven't yet worked with any Z-Wave).

I've settled mostly on using Insteon for lower-end & small installs and then Lutron for higher-end jobs. I've been pleased with UPB, but in my opinion the manufacturers of UBP gear are lagging behind Lutron & Insteon by not offering a contemporary looking keypad that can be engraved.

Some quick feedback on my experience with Insteon: I have 40+ Insteon devices in my own home which most were purchased early on (Winter 2005), so have been in place 2+ years. I think I've had 3-4 device failures that were replaced under warranty which is about 10% failure.

I have a number of local customers with Insteon installs ranging from 5 devices to around 60 devices and a remote DIY customer that has 80+ Insteon devices. Just last week I rounded up the bad Insteon stuff I've accumulated over the last year to RMA for replacements so can provide this data:

Insteon devices sold during 2007: 411
Insteon devices failed and returned for replacement: 16

This is a little under 4% failure which doesn't seem too bad...

Recent Insteon story if you care to read:
Last week I received a call from a new client that was a referred from Smarthome.com. He mentioned that he had some Insteon devices that were installed a couple years ago that weren't working after a power failure. I was curious because I'm not aware of anyone else locally that's doing much with Insteon... met with him the next day and found the following:

•The Insteon devices were originally installed by an electrician he brought in from Canada which is where he moved from.
•There were 47 Insteon devices that were controlling the exterior and landscape lighting only (no interior lighting).
•Sound like a lot of exterior lights? It is... this is a $12.5M Montecito estate using Insteon lighting.
•The devices have worked perfectly since being installed around 2yrs ago (Same as mine, so these are all very early devices).
•The Insteon devices are controlled using his Mac and the Indigo software which I had never used before.
•They had been without power for 18hrs and were now running on generators provided by the local electric utility.
•They had been running on generators for almost 4 days and still waiting for repairs which were also affecting 48 other homes in the area.
•They had a couple groups if lights that were stuck on, some that wouldn't turn on and couldn't control any lighting from the computer.

The computer control didn't surprise me because the power from the generators wasn't very stable. They mentioned that electric clocks were gaining almost 2hrs each day. I showed them how to pull the air gap switch and shut off the lights that wouldn't turn off from the switch and made plans to return once their power was back on. Got a call back later that day and power had been restored. Here's a lists of what I found:

•Lights that were stuck on had been caused by one failed 600w dimmer & one failed 1000w dimmer.
•Damaged GFI outlet that was powering some low-volt landscape lighting.
•Blown fuses in two low-volt landscape lighting transformer.
•Three burned out light bulbs in different areas.

What I initially through was going to be 7-8 bad Insteon switches only turned out to be two... all the other problems with lights not coming on were simple electrical problems (GFI, fuses & burned out bulbs). Had my electrician join me a couple days later to replace the switches and tend to the other electrical issues. Found the Indigo software is basic, but easy to use and didn't have any problems adding the replacement switches and modifying some timers.

Would I have put Insteon in this home? Probably not, but the owner's seem pleased with it and it's worked well for them. I think the fact that only 2 of 47 devices have failed in the first two years (and that it took a significant power disruption to kill them) shows that Insteon hardware can be reliable.

From an installer's perspective I think that Insteon is a good solution for the DIYer. For me, it's also a good and inexpensive solution to offer for small installations of 10 devices or less. What I've found on larger installs is the setup and configuration of Insteon is more finicky that Lutron RadioRa and can take much more time. It seems that on larger installs the labor rate is considerably more for Insteon than RadioRA, so the job would end up costing the customer about the same (low cost Insteon with more labor vs. higher cost RadioRa with less labor). In the end, profit is similar on both, but I can install the RadioRa in less time and feel that it's a better product so have been leaning this direction more recently for all but small jobs.

Hopefully someone will find this information useful or entertaining? I think I've been typing all this for the sole purpose of delaying what I really need to be doing... going out and shopping for Christmas presents!

Happy Holidays,
Paul

 

[Herdfan]

I•There were 47 Insteon devices that were controlling the exterior and landscape lighting only (no interior lighting).
•Sound like a lot of exterior lights? It is... this is a $12.5M Montecito estate using Insteon lighting.

Just out of curiousity, what type of system controlled the indoor lights?

 

[Digger]

I•There were 47 Insteon devices that were controlling the exterior and landscape lighting only (no interior lighting).
•Sound like a lot of exterior lights? It is... this is a $12.5M Montecito estate using Insteon lighting.

Just out of curiousity, what type of system controlled the indoor lights?

If they were not controlled manually then maybe that would explain the low failure rate compared to other installations. Also with that many... how many would you manually press in a day or week