Price Sanity Check

[broconne]

Has anyone had a LV price come in really high before and re-negotiated it down to something reasonable?

Any tactics besides the "walk away tactic"?

The first tactic I can think of is asking for a price for a generic cable run, where I supply the cable.

All good ideas wanted!

 

[pkoslow]

We're building now and we're with a custom builder. In pricing out the LV installation they wanted 50K to wire the house (6500sq/ft). No way am I paying that much. I ended up doing all the LV myself, 120 RG6 drops, 150 CAT6, 24 CCTV, 12 touchscreen locations, 15 zones of audio, 20 IR, 15 Tele, 30 resigard drops, 2 2" conduits to the attic, 8 motion, 8 glass break, 6 external doors, 2 sirens, 1 strobe, 4 pressure pads, 40 windows and a bunch of 18/2 drops to various locations. I've spent around 7K in wiring and 1 month installing it. Some of these builders are nuts when it comes to quoting jobs.

CB

How did you get 1 month to do your wiring? I was under the impression after the roof went up there wasn't really all THAT much time before sheet rock went up. I figured at most 2 weeks.

Most of the custom homes I work in of this size (6-8k sq/ft) take at least 12-18 months to build. Just roughing in electrical, plumbing, HVAC can take 4-6 weeks or more so there's usually a fairly large window of opportunity before insulation and drywall go up.

 

[Kevin L]

The only reason I can think of the add'l $20 for CAT5 is the termination (time and material).

What about doing wireless for occupancy detectors? I've got some in my home, and they work just fine. They're not a critical systems, so the added reliability isn't needed. Plus, it gives you the option to locate or relocate the detector after you've moved in.

One thing I didn't see mentioned was Video distribution. Are you centrally locating your AV equipment? I have all my servers, DVRs, DVD and CD players, Media players, HT receivers, etc. located in a central closet. The only thing at the TV locations is HDMI and Component AV outlets, and an IR receiver. If you're thinking of doing this, you'll need to cable for this.

I understand how it would be very difficult to walk away at this point. I'd still negotiate with the builder. There's a ton of profit in the prices he quoted. If he cut the price, he'll still make money. Point out some profit is better than no profit if you cut the items out totally.

Kevin

 

[broconne]

The only reason I can think of the add'l $20 for CAT5 is the termination (time and material).

It is $60 for unterminated! $105 if I want terminations

What about doing wireless for occupancy detectors? I've got some in my home, and they work just fine. They're not a critical systems, so the added reliability isn't needed. Plus, it gives you the option to locate or relocate the detector after you've moved in.

That is an idea.. I will be honest, I like the idea of everything hardwired... but choices will have to be made.

One thing I didn't see mentioned was Video distribution. Are you centrally locating your AV equipment? I have all my servers, DVRs, DVD and CD players, Media players, HT receivers, etc. located in a central closet. The only thing at the TV locations is HDMI and Component AV outlets, and an IR receiver. If you're thinking of doing this, you'll need to cable for this.

Pipe chase to all locations that have TVs. I will run the HDMI or HDMI over ethernet as needed.

I understand how it would be very difficult to walk away at this point. I'd still negotiate with the builder. There's a ton of profit in the prices he quoted. If he cut the price, he'll still make money. Point out some profit is better than no profit if you cut the items out totally.

That is the hope. I met with the builder today. Told him that I was having a lot of trouble with the prices on the LV. He said he and the LV guy were still working it out price wise.. I have a call into the LV guy who will call me later today. I was hoping to sit down with him instead, but he is busy today and I wont be back home until the 3rd. I am hoping he can work with me on this stuff - otherwise I have to start cutting things, and they won't make as much profit that way I don't think.

They builder, in general, is a good guy to work with. It is a regional builder so he doesn't have total autonomy. Today we discussed some structural changes which are important to us, and sounds like will be no charge (Moving laundry room upstairs / expanding the mudroom from where the laundry was and removing a walk in closet in one of the bedrooms). With that in mind, I am hoping he works with us here - with all the options and non-standard options we are really way past our initial budget before the LV charges.

 

[Kevin L]

Glad to hear that dialog is flowing, and it seems he knows the prices are a bit crazy. Since he's been accommodating in other areas, you may have hope.

I'm a strong believer in hardwired, too, especially in critical areas like security and lighting. However, wireless technology is much improved, and is getting better each year. Besides some of the motion sensors, I've got pool cage doors, generator door, and other outdoor items with wireless contacts. The Elk wireless receiver is in the trusses on the second floor and all of the sensors have worked flawlessly.

This is the first house I've built, and I spent two years designing and writing the specs. When we arranged the construction financing, the lender suggested we borrow 10-20% extra to cover changes and underestimating. I said no, I'm confident with my figures. House ended up coming in about under the contract price and I got a refund from the builder. OTOH, it would have been really easy to come in over, so I hear you. It's especially hard to get our wives to understand the "importance" of all the LV and automation.

 

[felixrosbergen]

I would say drop all the termination work.....it's time consuming to terminate Cat5/RJ45 and the LV guy needs to charge that time.

You're already paying for a LOT of cable that goes in the wall but may not see use for first few years or maybe NEVER for some. I would think it's not too big of an effort to terminate the stuff yourself if and when you need the cable. For those prices quite i don't know if the terminations are included, likely he'll want extra to use keystones etc.

I am all about the 'pay as you go' tactic. My house is pretty much complete and i only got the security stuff pre-wires and the lower level audio and i had 3/4" conduit chase put in from LV boxes to the basement (will run my own Cat5/6 and RG6QS if/when needed) and from light switch locations (to allow me to put cat5 in later for ALC lighting). I coudl have pretty easilly have them just put a cat5 to each lighting location, but with ALC using the aux contacts/switches 1 cat5 is not always enough.

I looked at the wiring 101 and figured that for my wishes it was overkill.

I have 2 2" PVC chase from basement up to the attic. I can get into any wall from the attic to add whatever i want at any time. The ground floor ceiling is ofcourse the hardest hence the pre-wire for whole house audio there. Like i said i had the conduit put into the lower level since getting into the lower level walls is less easy from the basement.

On the upper level i had several locations per room fitted with the conduit for the most likely locations.

To me it seemed really silly to pre-wire with 5 RG59 bundles to many locations with HDMI and things like SageTV available...

Unless you can do the work yourself and the only cost if the cable i would find it very hard to justify the pre-wire cost for so many items knowing that they may not be used. Therefore i was glad to see you dropped the shade pre-wire from the list...with the cost of these shades 29 of them would represent a totally rediculous total cost.

Remember that if you really forget something important a descent electrician can pretty much snake his way into any location, at a slighly higher cost then if he did it during roughin, but again this is only for the places you'll actually be using it.

If you're concerned about the cost of the pre-wire and $20k is on the high side for budget make a light of all the hardware (whole house audio amps, speakers, keypads, alarm control, server, light switches, etc) then think if you'd rather buy that or spend your money on cable in the wall you then wont be able to use because you cant afford the hardware....

ok...my rant is over...I just think we guys like us read these forums and guides we think we 'need' it all, but a reality check against you budget and if you have the time and skill to put all this gear in place (and if the spouse will accept it) shoudl generally result in a severe cut down on the list.

If i was allowed to run my own LV and somehow had the time to do it i would put it all in.

Regarding time...if you are allowed to do it yourself but are concerned about the builder's schedule why not just tell him to build this time into the schedule. The extra month delay to give you the time to run the wire shouldnt cost you all that much (less than what 1 month worth of mortgage payment would be if you financed 80%).

 

[Neurorad]

Just tell him to give you an extra month to run the LV yourself. Then pay someone else to do it, if you don't have the time.

+1 skip the terminations (connectors/wallplates), and do it later yourself, if you enjoy that kind of thing. Or, have someone else do it at a later date, if you just want to save money. Just take lots of photos before the drywall goes up.

 

[charliebarns]

We're building now and we're with a custom builder. In pricing out the LV installation they wanted 50K to wire the house (6500sq/ft). No way am I paying that much. I ended up doing all the LV myself, 120 RG6 drops, 150 CAT6, 24 CCTV, 12 touchscreen locations, 15 zones of audio, 20 IR, 15 Tele, 30 resigard drops, 2 2" conduits to the attic, 8 motion, 8 glass break, 6 external doors, 2 sirens, 1 strobe, 4 pressure pads, 40 windows and a bunch of 18/2 drops to various locations. I've spent around 7K in wiring and 1 month installing it. Some of these builders are nuts when it comes to quoting jobs.

CB

How did you get 1 month to do your wiring? I was under the impression after the roof went up there wasn't really all THAT much time before sheet rock went up. I figured at most 2 weeks.

Most of the custom homes I work in of this size (6-8k sq/ft) take at least 12-18 months to build. Just roughing in electrical, plumbing, HVAC can take 4-6 weeks or more so there's usually a fairly large window of opportunity before insulation and drywall go up.

Paul hit the nail on the head. They may tell you it'll be done quick, but it won't. They told me I had 10 days, ha. Between electrical and plumbing those guys took 2 months. I just kept going back and adding wires here and there with that wonderful scope creep.

 

[broconne]

I would say drop all the termination work.....it's time consuming to terminate Cat5/RJ45 and the LV guy needs to charge that time.

This quote only had about 5 terminated items in it..

You're already paying for a LOT of cable that goes in the wall but may not see use for first few years or maybe NEVER for some. I would think it's not too big of an effort to terminate the stuff yourself if and when you need the cable. For those prices quite i don't know if the terminations are included, likely he'll want extra to use keystones etc.

No problem with terminations here. I agree.

I am all about the 'pay as you go' tactic. My house is pretty much complete and i only got the security stuff pre-wires and the lower level audio and i had 3/4" conduit chase put in from LV boxes to the basement (will run my own Cat5/6 and RG6QS if/when needed) and from light switch locations (to allow me to put cat5 in later for ALC lighting). I coudl have pretty easilly have them just put a cat5 to each lighting location, but with ALC using the aux contacts/switches 1 cat5 is not always enough.

Yeah, I am trying to spec 2 Cat5 to each lighting location.

I looked at the wiring 101 and figured that for my wishes it was overkill.

Shhhhh

I have 2 2" PVC chase from basement up to the attic. I can get into any wall from the attic to add whatever i want at any time. The ground floor ceiling is ofcourse the hardest hence the pre-wire for whole house audio there. Like i said i had the conduit put into the lower level since getting into the lower level walls is less easy from the basement.

95% of the attic in this house is floored - so I really can't get anywhere on the second floor ceiling or inner walls (without a pipe chase).

On the upper level i had several locations per room fitted with the conduit for the most likely locations.

To me it seemed really silly to pre-wire with 5 RG59 bundles to many locations with HDMI and things like SageTV available...

RG59 was for security cameras.

Unless you can do the work yourself and the only cost if the cable i would find it very hard to justify the pre-wire cost for so many items knowing that they may not be used. Therefore i was glad to see you dropped the shade pre-wire from the list...with the cost of these shades 29 of them would represent a totally rediculous total cost.

Yeah - Shades were first to go. Am I capable of doing the work myself? Yes - will I be able to - different question.

Remember that if you really forget something important a descent electrician can pretty much snake his way into any location, at a slighly higher cost then if he did it during roughin, but again this is only for the places you'll actually be using it.

Good point. Really tough for in ceiling I would think however.

If you're concerned about the cost of the pre-wire and $20k is on the high side for budget make a light of all the hardware (whole house audio amps, speakers, keypads, alarm control, server, light switches, etc) then think if you'd rather buy that or spend your money on cable in the wall you then wont be able to use because you cant afford the hardware....

True.

Regarding time...if you are allowed to do it yourself but are concerned about the builder's schedule why not just tell him to build this time into the schedule. The extra month delay to give you the time to run the wire shouldnt cost you all that much (less than what 1 month worth of mortgage payment would be if you financed 80%).

Not allowed to do it myself. I am not carrying the construction land - it isn't my property until I close on the house after it is built.

 

[broconne]

Just tell him to give you an extra month to run the LV yourself. Then pay someone else to do it, if you don't have the time.

+1 skip the terminations (connectors/wallplates), and do it later yourself, if you enjoy that kind of thing. Or, have someone else do it at a later date, if you just want to save money. Just take lots of photos before the drywall goes up.

I wish i could run it myself - but I don't own the house until I close on it. I only put 10% down and they start building. I enjoy terminating... The only terminations being done are the 5 combo drops (2 cat5/2rg6) that come with the house.

 

[lorenkoeman]

I see that a big part of your cost is the 2" pipe runs. Are you sure that you need 2" in all these locations. In my experience 2" is a real PITA to run, because you can't run it through a standard 2x4 so I would expect this to cost more. I picked up some 1 1/4" Carlon resi-guard cheap and ran it where I wanted to pull cable later. I am told that is the max size that you can run through a standard 2x4. You might inquire if this would be cheaper, and convert some of the 2" runs to it.

btw...I bouight the resi-guard on an auction and ended up with way more than I needed. I want to save a bit for the future, but I think I may have an entire 500' spool of this stuff if you are buying on your own. If interested let me know.

 

[sic0048]

I see that a big part of your cost is the 2" pipe runs. Are you sure that you need 2" in all these locations. In my experience 2" is a real PITA to run, because you can't run it through a standard 2x4 so I would expect this to cost more. I picked up some 1 1/4" Carlon resi-guard cheap and ran it where I wanted to pull cable later. I am told that is the max size that you can run through a standard 2x4. You might inquire if this would be cheaper, and convert some of the 2" runs to it.

btw...I bouight the resi-guard on an auction and ended up with way more than I needed. I want to save a bit for the future, but I think I may have an entire 500' spool of this stuff if you are buying on your own. If interested let me know.

???

A 2x4 gives you a space about 3 1/2" deep (the space between the front of a stud and the back of a stud). So a 2" pipe should have no problem running in this space. The 2" dimension of the 2x4 (really 1 1/2") refers to the thickness of surface that would be flush against the wall (ie you have a 1 1/2" board to nail your drywall on).

 

[broconne]

I see that a big part of your cost is the 2" pipe runs. Are you sure that you need 2" in all these locations. In my experience 2" is a real PITA to run, because you can't run it through a standard 2x4 so I would expect this to cost more. I picked up some 1 1/4" Carlon resi-guard cheap and ran it where I wanted to pull cable later. I am told that is the max size that you can run through a standard 2x4. You might inquire if this would be cheaper, and convert some of the 2" runs to it.

btw...I bouight the resi-guard on an auction and ended up with way more than I needed. I want to save a bit for the future, but I think I may have an entire 500' spool of this stuff if you are buying on your own. If interested let me know.

2 inch PVC conduit is all they offer. You bring up a good point - I should ask about smaller conduit where they say 2inch wont work. I will see if I can buy my own - and I will be in contact if that is possible.

 

[broconne]

As an update. I had a meeting with the builder - I told him these numbers were not what I was thinking. I was hoping to pay more around 15k or so for all of this run, labeled, etc. I told him, I would provide the wiring if he would do it at this price. He thought it was possible - but would have to get back to me. So we will see.

I know 15k is still a lot, but I can perhaps remove some of the unnecessary runs to the first floor walls, some blind runs, etc. I am guessing this is the best I will be able to do since I am not allowed to run the cable myself.

 

[lorenkoeman]

???

A 2x4 gives you a space about 3 1/2" deep (the space between the front of a stud and the back of a stud). So a 2" pipe should have no problem running in this space. The 2" dimension of the 2x4 (really 1 1/2") refers to the thickness of surface that would be flush against the wall (ie you have a 1 1/2" board to nail your drywall on).

You are correct that a 2" conduit can run no problem in the stud bays of a 2 x 4 wall. If you look at my quote, I am talking about running THROUGH a 2x4. In the code in most areas (check your local code) a single load bearing 2x4 can only have a maximum hole bored of 40% of its width. This is 1 3/8" just enough to run a 1 1/4" ENT