Programming Capacity

hoang de

New Member
Hello forum experts:
I'm a complete newbie and have some questions about the capability to hold program memories of two controller that I'm interested in, namely M1 Gold and Omnipro 2.
I've searched and read all I could find, but nothing comes up. I'm sorry if they are discussed elwhere that I could not find them, please point me to the right direction.
My question is, What are the differences between rules and programming lines, regarding how much memory it uses per one? I know ELK's rule consists of an event, an optional condition and an action. M1 Gold list 528 rule capacity. I watch HAI Webinar and here it lists its sample programming:
1. TIMED SUNSET WTWTFSS
THEN front porch ON
THEN drive way flood light ON
THEN master bed ON
This takes 4 programming lines in HAI. How many rules it uses in ELK? One or 4?
2. WHEN front door NOT READY
AND IF DARK
AND IF AWY
THEN overhead garage door light ON
This takes one programming line.
3. EVERY MINUTE
AND IF downstair current temperature IS GREATER THAN 75
THEN fan ON
This takes 3 lines.
4. WHEN front gate
AND IF DARK
THEN driveway flood light ON FOR 5 MINUTES
This takes one line.
5. WHEN Tom's master code OFF
WHEN Bob's master code OFF
THEN ALL t-stats MODE AUTO
THEN ALL t-stats COOL SETPOINT 75
THEN ALL t-stats HEAT SETPOINT 70
THEN ALL UNIT ON
THEN living room AUDIO ON
THEN living room AUDIO VOLUMN 33%
THEN living room AUDIO SOURCE XM RADIO
This takes 10 lines.
It gets me confused more and more. First, it seems like one action per line, regardless number of conditions as line #2 shows, but line #3 shows different. Then line #4 takes only 0ne. The last one, line #5 takes 10 lines of programming while I see only 2 events and 7 actions.
So, how does it relate to ELK's number of rules it takes? If it takes 5 rules vs 19 programming lines as per HAI then 528 rules vs 1500 lines is not much different.
Sorry for its long and dumb question.
Thanks.
 
I just looked around the elk site (you need a login to do this) and couldn't find the reference - but I've seen things before that said that each "and" counts as another rule; I'm not sure about additional "then" statements.

I'd say though if you want to do fancy rules, I'd definitely consider adding an automation controller of some sort - personally I have Elve set up ($99 intro is hard to beat) to handle some of my longer rules. Also the built-in email capability of the Elk is pretty weak at the moment; using something like Elve you can be much more dynamic. You can definitely add quite a few rules to the Elk though - when it was my only rules engine, I don't think I ever used more than 10% of my rule space. I can't speak to HAI.
 
I just put the first one into my bench and it took up 1% of the total space available. I looked up a few other M1's that have some pretty hairy rules and it seems like each rule takes up 1% of the total memory.

I have a few M1's installed in commercial applications where I am using them for access control using prox readers with multiple partitions, outputs, firing strikes and the like, and I've got multiple schedules and access windows based on users, which there are about 100, and I don't think I really put too big of a dent in the rules memory.

I also pulled up a couple HAI's and it seems like more lines are being used per rule, but it equates to approximately the same.
 
In HAI 2.x controllers each "program line" had a trigger/event, 2 conditions and an action. So something like "WHEN DARK AND IF THURSDAY AND IF FRONT DOOR NOT READY THEN PROCH LIGHT ON" Would evaluate into a single "program line". There were 1500 of them available.

In 3.x controllers we changed the original rigid programming structure to a more flexible one that allowed for an unlimited number of triggers, unlimited number of conditions and "or" statement, and an unlimited number of actions in a context known as a program block.

When entering programs each block is compiled into the most efficient storage possible. In some cases as many as 4 lines on the screen may be compiled into a single "program line" and in other cases one line on the screen = 1 "program line", it all depends on how it compiles. There is a real time used/available count in PC Access so you can see what you are using, but 1500 "program lines" is a lot.
 
At the end of the day unless you go absolutely crazy with programming lines/rules I think this is really nothing to waste your time on. Both systems are very capable in this regard and either one will likely hold up fine and give you plenty of room.
 
I have to say, I agree with Steve... Knowing that they're comparable, I can't believe Rules Space would be the differentiator? Anything else about the two strike you one way or the other?
 
I have 96 rules on my Elk m1g and have used 54% of the programming. I believe work2play is correct when he says that each condition locks up one "block" of memory space. So a single rule with two conditions or "whenevers" is like two separate rules on memory.

I would take a roundabout guess just glossing over my rules and say that at least half have two conditions and 3 or more conditions exist on a dozen or so.

I also have an ISY99 so the vast majority of my lighting rules are on that. If I were using the Elk to run my lighting, it would probably have run out of space. The only lighting rules I have my elk running are the ones related to alarm contacts. Of course ISY keeps promising the Elk module any day now which will mean that virtually all rules should be movable to the ISY making memory issues irrelevant (ISY has waaaaaay more memory than you could ever use on rules).
 
I have to say, I agree with Steve... Knowing that they're comparable, I can't believe Rules Space would be the differentiator? Anything else about the two strike you one way or the other?

I've installed both.

One thing I like about HAI is the OmniProII system board includes a network port and a number of serial ports. The ELK M1G has a single serial port that, with an add-on, can hook up the system to your network but you lose the serial port.

My home automation system could ONLY hook to the serial port and thus a network connection was not an option for me. Which means that to change the ELK programming I have go down to basement, disconnect the home automation system, connect my laptop, make the programming changes and re-connect the home automation system. Now this is ONLY because of the limitation of my particular home automation system not being able to connect via a network connection. With the HAI since the serial port and the network port are separate I can connect that same home automation system and still have the network connection. So I can update the HAI programming via the network connection, even over the internet.

I much prefer the ELK approach to expansion, the boards are smaller and you can add input or output (relay or voltage outputs) boards as needed. With HAI you can add three boards to the system board, adding 16 zones each. Then you can add "external" boards which add 16 zones and 16 voltage outputs each.

The ELK also has zone inputs with greater flexibility in how they are configured. Refer to the ELK manual to set what I mean.

The ELK "voice" feature is built-in, with HAI it is an part of an add-on.

The ELK seems to be a bit smarter when it comes to updating the programming on the system board - it seems to only update what is needed.

I think the HAI has the edge when it comes to touch-screens and such BUT I haven't added touch screens to either as I use the touch screens that are part of the home automation system.

When I install another home automation system I will likely go with the ELK as the security part. If I were to be limited to using only the HAI or ELK I would have to give that a good deal more thought.
 
My home automation system could ONLY hook to the serial port and thus a network connection was not an option for me. Which means that to change the ELK programming I have go down to basement, disconnect the home automation system, connect my laptop, make the programming changes and re-connect the home automation system. Now this is ONLY because of the limitation of my particular home automation system not being able to connect via a network connection.
I work around this by creating a virtual serial port that my HA software can use. That way everything can communicate via the XEP, even if it wasn't designed for IP support.
http://www.hw-group.com/products/hw_vsp/index_en.html
 
I've installed both.

One thing I like about HAI is the OmniProII system board includes a network port and a number of serial ports. The ELK M1G has a single serial port that, with an add-on, can hook up the system to your network but you lose the serial port.
...

You could add up to 7 serial ports to the Elk M1 with the M1XSP serial port expander.
http://www.elkproducts.com/_webapp_2981445/ELK-M1XSP__Lighting_and_Thermostat_Interface,_Serial_Port_Expander

:)
 
I work around this by creating a virtual serial port that my HA software can use. That way everything can communicate via the XEP, even if it wasn't designed for IP support.
http://www.hw-group....p/index_en.html

I take it your HA software runs under Windows?

My system is a dedicated box running XP Embedded and cannot run 3rd party software.

I tried something similar once using ELKs IP232 to provide a serial port for the HA system to connect to and a network port to connect to the ELK via an ELK XEP connected to the ELK serial port.

While the HA system could connect it would drop the connection fairly often and I would have to cycle power to ELK to get the connection back. Perhaps I should try again with a different Serial Port server.

Thanks.
 
I just looked around the elk site (you need a login to do this) and couldn't find the reference - but I've seen things before that said that each "and" counts as another rule; I'm not sure about additional "then" statements...
It's in Elk RP2, which has these notations:

In the RULES section
By definition, a rule is a "WHENEVER" event with a single "THEN" statement. Additional "ANDs" and "THENs" use one additional Rule each. If a "THEN" statement contains a "FOR" it will use one additional Rule.

In the TEXT section
Every eight characters in a text use the equivalent of one Rule in the Rules/Text space.

FWIW, I have 151 rules and a bunch of text strings taking up 85% of the 528-rule space in the M1G.
 
Yes but I don't think it provides control of the system as does the main port.
Exact same functionality as the main serial port.

The touchscreens are comparable, but the Elk has a much faster interface and data transfer compared to the HAI, in my real world installation comparisons. AS it got put to me by Elk, you're putting a touchscreen that costs $X against some of these systems whose touchscreens cost $3X. If the M1 was the only controller involved, so be it, but when you're looking at an AMX or Crestron and a panel tied on to those....

There are some capabilities that aren't equivalent, such as rules, but I look at the price points involved. An Omni is more than twice the cost of the M1, closer to 3X when you factor in any UI's and the other hardware needed to make it work.

My peeves with HAI vs. Elk are the platforms. I do not like how a HAI panel is "assembled" when you start adding modules and peripherals, everything is on top of the board or piling on top of other connections, makes for a very difficult day when troubleshooting or chasing wires. The Elk is much more modular in it's design and hardware, and removing the other boards from their plastic project boxes and using SWG's helps tremendously.

I've found personally, the design of mounting the Elk boards in one of their cans to be very slick and allows for a very robust and large system to be installed within a small footprint, without sacrificing the ability to service the thing. I'm referring to the use of the SWG's and not laying the boards flat in a 3rd party can.

My experience has been that more programmers for AMX and Crestron tend to lean towards HAI compared to the Elk for whatever reason, even though both are 100% supported.
 
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