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Questions for new HAI Lumina Pro System

AutomatedOutlet

Senior Member
Frederick C. Wilt said:
Indeed you do not have to follow the HAI UPB scheme but then you lose all status tracking unless you put in a ton of rules. Software systems like CQC or hardware systems like Elan g! already have the support needed to track UPB devices status.
Not really true Frederick (except for HAI keypads). The key is to make sure you turn on 2-way status on the UPB devices. 
 

fcwilt

Active Member
I know it's supposed to work that way but it's a bit of a crap shoot. Even with devices set to report status things tend get out of sync. With a system that knows what should talk to what it can periodically check status and in my experience the result is much better.
 
YMMV.
 

Choots

Member
So I've finally had some time to spend on this.  I did end up buying the RC-2000 Omnistats, and I've installed my Honeywell TrueZone Zone controller dampers (three zones) and I'm getting ready to hook up the 3 thermostats and controller.  I'm going to do a two phase install process.  First, since I currently have four wires to my thermostats and I don't have the HAI Lumina Pro panel installed yet, and it's a pain to fish the upstairs wire, I'll just connect the Zone Control system first.  I'll hook up the 3 thermostats to the Zone controller using the four wire cable and hook up to the equipment in single stage mode.  I'll also want to hook up the humidifier connection to the main floor thermostat.  Basically it will be try out the Zone control system in the house while it's still winter - and believe me - it's winter in Minnesota.  
 
Then, once the HAI panel is installed, I will attempt to fish new 5-wire thermostat cable to the thermos along with the 3 wire cable to tie the Thermos into the HAI panel.  Then since I've used the Zone Controller in single stage mode, it should be easy to transition the equipment to two-stage operation for heat, single stage for AC.  Fix your variables and all that.
 
I think the instructions for the RC-2000 are pretty clear, but here's some questions.
 
1) The Omnistats can operate with SystemType set to Zone Control mode or Conventional mode.  I believe all three should be left in Conventional mode as the Zone controller will do it's thing to manage the equipment.  Correct?
2) Connecting the Humidifier, the main floor thermo should be in Humidifier mode and directly connected using the existing wire from the separate humidifier control. An the humidifier connections are just the Humidifier (H) and the 24VAC connection.  Right?
3) I'm not clear if I'll need the Common connection for the Omnistats. It seems like this is a trial and error thing - it's not needed with my current thermostat, a nice Honeywell VisionPro 1003.  Or is the Omnistat different because it's a communicating thermo?
4) When updating to two stage and connecting the HAI panel, I shouldn't have to do anything different except connect the 5 wire to the Zone control and to the equipment, connect the 3 wire to the HAI , and update the thermostats for two-stage heat; single stage cool.  When looking at install instructions, I'm not sure the RC-2000 can do 2 stage Heat, 1 Stage Cool.  Will there be any issue if I set it as 2 heat, 2 Cool and the AC is a single stage unit?
 
Then once it's all installed I can play with the HAI control.  Is there anything else for me to be aware of?
 
Thanks,
Choots
 
 
 

Choots

Member
Well, since I didn't get any answers to my questions, I plunged ahead with the install.  Hopefully the info below will help someone in a similar situation.  I also have a couple remaining HVAC related questions.
 
Once the TrueZone panel was setup near the furnace and connected to dampers and the 24VAC transformer, I connected my three RC-2000 thermostats using the existing 18-4 thermostat wire to the Zone controller from each location.  There was Red (R - power), White (W1 - stage 1 heat), Green (G - fan), and Blue (used for Y - stage 1 cool) on the existing thermostat.  I connected the Furnace and AC using the diagram for single stage heat and cool as in the Truezone install guide.  With this setup, I was able to run the "Check out" diagnostics on the TrueZone panel and get the furnace to light and the dampers to close and the fan to operate.  So the Zone Controller connection to the furnace equipment worked great and operated as expected.  
 
However, I didn't have power to any of the thermostats.  I took one of the thermostats downstairs and wired it in right by the panel using a short length of 18-5 wire and connecting the fifth wire to the common, as on p.6 of the RC-2000 install guide, and that powered up the thermostat fine.  In addition to another wire for the common, I'll also need a sixth wire if I want to enable the second stage of heat.  I'll have to buy some 18-7 wire instead of 18-5 to fish to all three thermostat locations (I haven't seen any other wire options). With our basement renovation, the basement is mostly down to studs so wiring the basement and main floor thermostat location shouldn't be hard, but the 2nd floor thermostat location will take some fishing and drywall repair.
 
Also, my humidifier is right near the thermostat on the main level, but it runs independently off a separate transformer; it doesn't appear to be connected to the existing thermostat, or furnace fan.  I want to connect this to one or all thermostats and remove the old Humidifier control.
 
Regarding my questions from the post above:
1) I'm using Conventional mode on the Zone Controller for now.  With HAI control that I'm after, Conventional mode should be what I need as long as I can eventually do 2 stage heat/1 stage cool.
2) To connect the humidifier, I'm assuming all I have to do is run the additional common leg from the humidifier transformer into the Omnistat 2 common connector, along with the Zone Control common, and then connect the other humidifier wire (Red) to the "Humidifier (H)" connector to control it.  
3) Answered this - common wire is required from Zone Control to power Thermostat (also planning to connect humidifier transformer common here)
4) I'm not sure about whether the Omnistat2 can do Two stage heat/Single Stage Cool.  It seems the Omnistat 2 can do Single Stage Heat/Cool, and Two stage Heat/Two stage cool, but I'm not sure whether I can/should run this without a second stage AC connection.  If the single stage connection shuts off in favor of the second stage connection, then it would seem to shut of my AC right when it's calling for the additional cooling.   Another option I see is the Zone Control Mode of the TrueZone controller unit has wiring that connects an additional stage of heat.  See p. 7 of the RC-2000 install guide.  Or could I possibly bridge the two Cool connections (Y1, Y2) to my single stage AC in Two stage cool mode?
 
My remaining questions
1) Will the Omnistat 2 thermostats work with Two stage Heat, and single stage cool?   If so, what setting/wiring config should I use?
2) Is it advisable to connect the humidifier in parallel to all three thermostats?  I'm fishing new wires anyway, and this would seem to allow each zone to include humidification when working independently, which should balance things out more evenly.
3) What gauge of wire to use for the HAI Lumina Pro pabel to Omnistat2 connection?   I have a lot of cat 5e around and would prefer to use this to connect thermostats to the HAI panel as I wouldn't have to buy more wire.  Is it ok to use this?
 
 
Regards,
Choots
 

ano

Senior Member
Choots said:
My remaining questions
1) Will the Omnistat 2 thermostats work with Two stage Heat, and single stage cool?   If so, what setting/wiring config should I use?
2) Is it advisable to connect the humidifier in parallel to all three thermostats?  I'm fishing new wires anyway, and this would seem to allow each zone to include humidification when working independently, which should balance things out more evenly.
3) What gauge of wire to use for the HAI Lumina Pro pabel to Omnistat2 connection?   I have a lot of cat 5e around and would prefer to use this to connect thermostats to the HAI panel as I wouldn't have to buy more wire.  Is it ok to use this?
 
 
Regards,
Choots
> 1) Will the Omnistat 2 thermostats work with Two stage Heat, and single stage cool?   If so, what setting/wiring config should I use?
 
Yes, the OmniStat2 Can have one or two stages of heat or AC or any combination in between.  The settings are in the setup.  The zone controller also has several means of controlling stages as well, so a two stage thermostat isn't really required. The zone controller can pick the stage based on how many thermostats are calling for heat or AC or with a timer.  You'll have more options than you know what to do with.
 
> 2) Is it advisable to connect the humidifier in parallel to all three thermostats?  I'm fishing new wires anyway, and this would seem to allow each zone to include humidification when working independently, which should balance things out more evenly.
 
I'm not sure what running the "humidifier in parallel to all three thermostats" means?  But if the humidifier is controlled by the Omni, there are lots of options. The OmniStat's report back so you know when the heat is on.
 
> 3) What gauge of wire to use for the HAI Lumina Pro pabel to Omnistat2 connection?   I have a lot of cat 5e around and would prefer to use this to connect thermostats to the HAI panel as I wouldn't have to buy more wire.  Is it ok to use this?
 
I'm not sure of the requirement.  You might want to use a heavier cable because it does carry power. I'd check the Omni Guide for the spec. Typically thermostat with is heavier than Cat 5e.
 

Choots

Member
Thanks ano for your help.  I have a couple questions for you about your response:
ano said:
> 1) Will the Omnistat 2 thermostats work with Two stage Heat, and single stage cool?   If so, what setting/wiring config should I use?
 
Yes, the OmniStat2 Can have one or two stages of heat or AC or any combination in between.  The settings are in the setup.  The zone controller also has several means of controlling stages as well, so a two stage thermostat isn't really required. The zone controller can pick the stage based on how many thermostats are calling for heat or AC or with a timer.  You'll have more options than you know what to do with.
 
Can you detail how this is done with the Omnistat2? I see only specific options in the installation manual for Conventional heating/cooling (e.g. Two Stage Heat/Cool).  I don't have a heat pump, so I'm assuming I can't use those options as they would have parameters that don't apply to a conventional, two stage gas furnace and single stage AC.    Regarding the Zone Controller (TrueZone HZ322)  I don't see anything in the install guide/manual that relates to this kind of configuration or the ability to program it this functionality - do you have a reference or some details?   I already have the Omnistat2s and maybe would've gone with the single stage thermostats if I had known how to do this.   
 
ano said:
> 2) Is it advisable to connect the humidifier in parallel to all three thermostats?  I'm fishing new wires anyway, and this would seem to allow each zone to include humidification when working independently, which should balance things out more evenly.
 
I'm not sure what running the "humidifier in parallel to all three thermostats" means?  But if the humidifier is controlled by the Omni, there are lots of options. The OmniStat's report back so you know when the heat is on.
 
The humidifier has only two wires - a Red and White (Common) and is completely separate from the furnace.  Instead of connecting it directly to only one of the thermostats, I could use three pairs of wires to connect the humidifier to each of the three Omnistat2 thermostats in parallel - since they each control a different zone in the house, each thermostat can control whether humidity is being called when that zone is calling for heat.  Seems to me the best way to balance not only the temperature in the house, but the humidity level, if you're using zones.
 
ano said:
> 3) What gauge of wire to use for the HAI Lumina Pro pabel to Omnistat2 connection?   I have a lot of cat 5e around and would prefer to use this to connect thermostats to the HAI panel as I wouldn't have to buy more wire.  Is it ok to use this?
 
I'm not sure of the requirement.  You might want to use a heavier cable because it does carry power. I'd check the Omni Guide for the spec. Typically thermostat with is heavier than Cat 5e.
 
I think you misunderstood me - there's a typo in my original question.   I'm not talking about thermostat to zone control or furnace wiring, which is usually 18 ga. wire, and does carry power (24VAC), but rather the connection between the HAI Lumina Pro panel and the thermostat - which shouldn't require any power and is only for data sensing/control.  I'm hardwiring the thermostats to the HAI panel to read and adjust thermostat parameters - can I use Cat5e?  I've seen a thread on here suggesting this for shade control wiring with an HAI panel.
 
 
Thanks,
Choots
 

neillt

Active Member
I agree with ano that it makes more sense to control the humidifier via the Lumina panel.  Get a relay board and control it with an output.  Much cleaner, and you can perform conditional decisions on it.
 
Cat 5e works just fine for the thermostat comm bus wiring.  It's RS-485 underneath if I remember right.
 
Your stage settings are listed on the thermostat under system options.  You can set 2 stages of heat and 1 stage of cooling.
 
When you configure for a conventional mutistage setup, you want to connect things as shown in Figure 8 of the thermostat installation manual.  You just won't be connecting the second cool stage, since you don't have one.
 

ano

Senior Member
For a conventional HVAC system, the RC-2000 supports 2-stage heat and 2-stage AC.
From page 1 of the RC-2000 installation instructions:
  • Single Stage Heat/Cool Conventional
  • Two Stage Conventional (2 Stage Heat / 2 Stage Cool)
  • Heat Pump and Geothermal Heat Pump (2 Stage Heat / 1 Stage Cool)
  • Two Speed Heat Pump and Geothermal Two Speed Heat Pump (3 Stage Heat / 2 Stage Cool)
  • Dual Fuel Heat Pump and Geothermal Dual Fuel Heat Pump
  • Humidifier and Dehumidifier Control
On page 19 of the installation instructions for the RC-2000, it tells how to change the stage settings.  The RC-1000 is a cheaper model which only controls single stage heat and cool.
 
The settings for the HZ322 are explained on page 7 of that installation manual. It can control 2 stage heat and/or 2 stage AC. The settings for 2-stage control are in the section labeled: Stage 2 Control. Options are: Timer, % Zones, Off. 
 
Cate 5e is fine for the panel to thermostat connections.
 
Since you have multi-zones and multi-stages, there is no predefinied way to connect it.  You can use the multi-stage control on each thermostat to control the multi-stage of the HVAC unit, or the HZ322 has other options which don't even require a 2-stage thermostat. You may especially want to look at the "% Zones" option. This uses stage 1 when only 1 stage is on, but stage 2 when 2 stages are on.  Its very bad to ever run your HVAC in stage 2 if only one zone is on. Its too much are air forced through one zone.
 

Choots

Member
neillt said:
I agree with ano that it makes more sense to control the humidifier via the Lumina panel.  Get a relay board and control it with an output.  Much cleaner, and you can perform conditional decisions on it.
 
Cat 5e works just fine for the thermostat comm bus wiring.  It's RS-485 underneath if I remember right.
 
Your stage settings are listed on the thermostat under system options.  You can set 2 stages of heat and 1 stage of cooling.
 
When you configure for a conventional mutistage setup, you want to connect things as shown in Figure 8 of the thermostat installation manual.  You just won't be connecting the second cool stage, since you don't have one.
 
 Hi neillt, I thought ano was referring to the thermostat when he mentioned the Omni - I didn't understand he might be referring to the Panel - I own the Lumina and the Omnistat so that's why I wasn't thinking about the panel.  I'll look into this, but I guess I can't see advantages.  Wouldn't the Thermostat control the humidifier to come on with the fan?  What more does one need?
 
I see the stage settings now - I'll check it out.  With the wiring as in Figure 8, I assume I would set one stage of cool and then just not connect a Y2 wire.  
 

Choots

Member
ano said:
For a conventional HVAC system, the RC-2000 supports 2-stage heat and 2-stage AC.
From page 1 of the RC-2000 installation instructions:
  • Single Stage Heat/Cool Conventional
  • Two Stage Conventional (2 Stage Heat / 2 Stage Cool)
  • Heat Pump and Geothermal Heat Pump (2 Stage Heat / 1 Stage Cool)
  • Two Speed Heat Pump and Geothermal Two Speed Heat Pump (3 Stage Heat / 2 Stage Cool)
  • Dual Fuel Heat Pump and Geothermal Dual Fuel Heat Pump
  • Humidifier and Dehumidifier Control
On page 19 of the installation instructions for the RC-2000, it tells how to change the stage settings.  The RC-1000 is a cheaper model which only controls single stage heat and cool.
 
The settings for the HZ322 are explained on page 7 of that installation manual. It can control 2 stage heat and/or 2 stage AC. The settings for 2-stage control are in the section labeled: Stage 2 Control. Options are: Timer, % Zones, Off. 
 
Cate 5e is fine for the panel to thermostat connections.
 
Since you have multi-zones and multi-stages, there is no predefinied way to connect it.  You can use the multi-stage control on each thermostat to control the multi-stage of the HVAC unit, or the HZ322 has other options which don't even require a 2-stage thermostat. You may especially want to look at the "% Zones" option. This uses stage 1 when only 1 stage is on, but stage 2 when 2 stages are on.  Its very bad to ever run your HVAC in stage 2 if only one zone is on. Its too much are air forced through one zone.
 
Thanks ano, I find the Honeywell install guide for the HZ322 to be clear but overly simple and limited.  I saw the settings you mention in the manual, but this just described the connection to the equipment (furnace/AC) and I thought that to run in multi-stage mode it would still require a multi-stage thermostat, setup and wired for multi-stage use.  I see nothing that says the Controller would automatically make decisions on changing the furnace stage in the absence of a multi-stage thermostat (but then I don't claim to be familiar with all the parameters in the advanced configuration).  Usually this involves determining how far the temperature is from the set point and determining how much time you have to get there and then firing the second stage of heat if required to get there too fast - which I've read is a thermostat function.
 
Also, regarding your last sentence, from my understanding running your HVAC with only one zone on has nothing to do with the furnace stage - a multi-stage furnace might have two different "fire" levels (low fire - e.g. 66K btu; high fire - e.g. 95K btu), and this would be to one or more zones at the same blower fan speed.  That is the system could call for a given zone and a given heat level/stage independently.   I suppose if you're talking about a furnace fan with multiple speeds, then that might be more applicable...running at a higher fan speed would push more air and then might be a problem through one zone.  Was that what you meant?
 
I'll have to do some more testing - but first I have to get the right wire.  Thanks for your response on the Cat5e too.
 
Choots
 

ano

Senior Member
You never want a single fan speed furnace with a zoned system, and it would be pretty rare to even have a multistage HVAC unit with a single speed fan.  For maximum efficiency that wouldn't be very smart.  Even a dual speed fan would be less than ideal. You really need a variable speed fan, which is the norm today, especially for a multi-zone system.  With the Honeywell zone controller you'll also need a bypass damper. 
 
All heat or AC systems are designed for a given airflow or which has to match the total heating or cooling capacity. If you double the heating or cooling, you have to double the airflow for a system to work correctly, and this is even bore you start worrying about airflow restrictions that come with zoning. 
 

Choots

Member
Thanks ano.  I agree a variable speed (ecm) motor is preferred, but I don't have one in my multi-stage Lennox G27M series furnace.  I'd have to go buy one specifically, which I was thinking about doing but they are not cheap - however, we do get a rebate in this area.  I'm going to try to get the zoning working first then see what needs to be done.  My basement contractor has an HVAC guy that has given some advice - he's installed 30 of the Honeywell zoning systems a year for the past couple, and he's saying that there is likely enough leakage between zones that a bypass damper shouldn't be needed.  He suggested trying it without first, and it can always be added.  I understand the design calls for one, and why, but I'm just taking it piece by piece and will see if I agree with what he says. 
 
I'll report back as I get this online.
 
Thanks,
 

ano

Senior Member
You just need to make sure, when only one zone is open, that you allow the airflow that the fan and furnace/AC requires. If you don't, it will not only be innefficent but the condensor will likely freeze up or the furnace will overheat and shut down.  There are special (expensive) dampers that open when the backpressure is too high to allow some air in ducts that are "closed" but these are rarely used. It becomes a bit of a balancing act so when only one zone is open (the most common condition) that the backpresure is not too high, and the AC/Heat is reduced. On the opposite extreme, when all zones are open, the problem is getting the fan high enough so it meets the CPM rate that the condensor/furnace needs. 
 
If your system has two zones, its not too bad because it becomes a 2:1 situation. For three zones, its 3:1 and for four, its very hard because you have a 4 to 1 ratio you have to meet. 
 
The zoned systems from Carrier, Trane, etc. never have a bypass damper because they use a variable fan, and at least two-stage unit that knows exactly how many zones are on, because they use proprietary thermostats that communicate with their main unit. The only problem is these systems don't work with third-party (HAI) thermostats. Honeywell is the answer on that side, BUT unfortunately now YOU have to get everything in sync.
 
If you are doing a new HVAC install, I'd highly recommend you have extra vents added for each zone, so if only one zone is on, the backpressure is reduced. I had an existing system made zones, so I had to add extra vents, especially on the smallest zone.
 

ano

Senior Member
I wanted to add that sometimes bypass dampers get a bad rap. I am very happy I got one even though I eventually modified my duct sutuation so I didn't need one, but I'm glad I have one. Its a bit of a circuit breaker for too much back pressure. Its also a circuit breaker when dampers change and if dampers ever malfuction. When it opens it circulates output air to input air so the air becomes hotter for heat and colder for AC while allowing airflow to be reduced. The bypass damper is completely worth the few hundred dollars it cost to add, and it adds flexibility later.
 

Choots

Member
So I finally got the Zone Control system up and running this summer.  With the cooler temps here in Minnesota, AC wasn't needed until late June.  Anyway, I have all three zones operational and three RC-2000 thermostats controlling everything.  Now I just have to optimize the settings to get the temperature we want in each zone.  I'm noticing that our upstairs doesn't have to same flow or temperature in the master suite versus the other two bedrooms, so I'll have to try to balance it with vents in each room.  The master had a renovation in the bathroom and closet and I'm wondering if all the ducts are properly connected.  I know they aren't sealed, but I feel like two ducts are hardly blowing, and I found one duct in the basement that was disconnected.  I also used foil tape to seal as many ducts as I can in the basement while it's down to the studs.
 
 One thing I've noticed is that the main floor thermostat seems to be off a few degrees.  We have the earlier Honeywell thermostat sitting on a table, and two other temperature gauges reading about 75, and the RC-2000 thermostat reading about 72 or so... I know I can calibrate it, but it doesn't seem very linear, and I'm wondering if that's indicating another problem, so I might look into a return for another one.  I also still have it hooked up as single stage heat and cool, so this winter as I mentioned I'll look into hooking up two stage heat, but for now it's not a concern.  I have at least 9 conductors running to each thermostat and separate cat 5e to my HAI Lumina Pro panel, but with our basement project going slow, that's not operational yet. 
 
I made some some drywall openings to fish the wiring upstairs so I have to fix those.  I cut fairly big pieces (16" x 12") in the drywall out so I could get my cordless driver in there to drill several holes in bottom plates through the floor on the main level and the upstairs.  One problem I had is that one of my holes through the bottom plate in the upper floor intersected with the existing hole through the top plate in the main level wall and it  hit the existing 4 wire thermostat cable and tore it right out.  Oh well I had to get some more 5 wire cable and fish two runs of it to serve the thermostat, but it wasn't a big hassle. I also cut about four additional 3/4" holes and ran 4 Cat6, 2 RG-6 and another cat5e for IR in the master bedroom, and I still have additional runs of Cat6, RG-6 and cat5e up to the other two bedrooms.  I'll just go all the way up to the attic and across and down to each of the other rooms - so much easier than going out to the garage from the basement, then up and into the attic and then across.   So it was worth it to cut holes in the walls and establish my pipeline of cables to the top floor 
 
Back to the HVAC, I don't have the bypass damper hooked up, and will monitor to see if it's needed, but so far the whole house is a more consistent temperature, which was the goal, so I think it's working ok.  Now I can move on to other parts of the basement remodel and get the HAI panel running along with lighting control.  I've got about 16 dimmers and several relay modules for the basement, so I'm getting anxious to have it all running, but we need some insulation and drywall first!  
 
Thanks to ano, neillt and others for comments and help with this part of my install.   If I figure out where to host pics long term, I'll post some.
 
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