Ra2 is a game changer - i have the hook up

[Esbelectric]

i know

 

[Esbelectric]

anyway i am not trying to take value away from the systems that you istall, i just think alot of installers have sold hw8 where hw4 may have been a better fit, and i also think that with ra2 and an hai panel you can achieve the same level of control at a much lower cost. There are certainly still applications for hw8, i just think that alot of the systems that were sold were overkill, and not easily upgradeable

 

[Fiasco]

anyway i am not trying to take value away from the systems that you istall, i just think alot of installers have sold hw8 where hw4 may have been a better fit, and i also think that with ra2 and an hai panel you can achieve the same level of control at a much lower cost. There are certainly still applications for hw8, i just think that alot of the systems that were sold were overkill, and not easily upgradeable

But you don't really know. Your average consumer would think any LCS is "overkill". Each system type/configuration has it's place and a well trained, experienced installer will select the most appropriate system for the residence or commercial application at hand.

 

[Esbelectric]

i dont view the subscribers to this forum as "your average consumer", and even if they were, the way i do business is to provide the customer with the best value, whether or not it makes me the most money, it works out in the long run

 

[Fiasco]

i dont view the subscribers to this forum as "your average consumer", and even if they were, the way i do business is to provide the customer with the best value, whether or not it makes me the most money, it works out in the long run

If you don't know anything about the other product lines and competitor product lines, how can you know?

 

[Esbelectric]

You are right, I would like to learn more about hw4 and hw8' and I would also like to learn why you think lutron is a better path than say crestrons lighting control, or any of the zigbee stuff, I have my own opinions, but would love to hear yours

 

[Fiasco]

You are right, I would like to learn more about hw4 and hw8' and I would also like to learn why you think lutron is a better path than say crestrons lighting control, or any of the zigbee stuff, I have my own opinions, but would love to hear yours

I never said it was superior to say crestron although I do think that the asthetic appearence of Lutron keypads is superior to Crestron, AMX and Vantage.

IMHO Ra is superior to other RF devices (but you pay a premium for it). It operates in a cleaner band and is less likely to suffer performance hits from interference. You can be sure 100% of the time when you tell RA to switch or dim a load it will react quickly everytime.
I'm sure they covered the differences in the various RF technologies when you went to training in Cooperstown. Lutron has first class training.

One thing I like about Lutron is they give real specs. If Lutron says a device has a range of 30' that number is worst case scenerio and you can rest assured at install time if you meet their specs the system will perform as it should.

 

[Esbelectric]

I totally agree with everything you just said

 

[yankeewired]

I have read about RA2 but have not got my hands on any devices yet. I thought homeworks was a hardwired system. Why would you be comparing a hardwired system to RA 2? I would like to here your opinions on why RA2 is a better product than UPB, INSTEON, JETSTREAM, Z WAVE, RA 1 ect.

 

[Esbelectric]

The reason for comparison is based on the end result, which is the best looking keypads available in over 30 colors, controlling loads with extreme reliability. Upb docent offer a keypad I would install in my customers homes, Insteon has better looking keypads than upb, but is less reliable, and I have heard of lots of quality control issues, I have no knowledge about jet stream or Zwave, ra1 is very reliable, and provides the same custom engraved, backlit high end look as ra2 or home works, but is limited to 32 or 64 loads, and is actually more expensive than ra2.

 

[Fiasco]

I have read about RA2 but have not got my hands on any devices yet. I thought homeworks was a hardwired system. Why would you be comparing a hardwired system to RA 2? I would like to here your opinions on why RA2 is a better product than UPB, INSTEON, JETSTREAM, Z WAVE, RA 1 ect.

I have replaced alot of insteon devices/systems, their newer stuff might be better but having seen so many failed devices I soured on them. I'm not a huge fan of mesh networks where control packets make multiple hops across devices and many operate in a crowded frequency range. In a mesh network if a device at a critical location in the home fails many other devices may no longer be able to communicate, whereas with a Ra system no device failure will cause other components not to function (save a repeater failure).

nwavguy has a nice recent post here on cocoontech where he talks about replacing his dying insteon system of 70+ devices here

http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php...;hl=zwave+sucks

Homeworks is a wired system but does have RF. If I were to build a new home for myself now I would choose a hardwired system. Dedicated connections trump RF any day of the week IMHO.

I don't know anything abut Jetstream.

RA1 is right out. There is no reason to sell anyone a RA device except to support an existing system. It has less features and costs more then RA2. For RA1 to have timeclock functionality you have to have a chronos (extra $). For TCP/IP control you need another device (extra $). The same thing for RS232 control. All of these functions are incorporated into the RA2 main repeater which is less than half the price of a Ra1 Chronos.

I think it is universally accepted that RA2 is the eminent RF system but it comes at a price premium over some other systems.

As far as Homeworks vs RA we were debating when it was appropriate to use one system vs another. For example, depending upon the layout of a home, there is an upper sq ft limitation on RA2 because there can only be 1 Main and 4 Auxillary repeaters on the system giving a maximum theoretical coverage of 12500 sq ft. However, if you made sure that every repeater coverage circle overlapped giving 100% coverate the sq footage would be somewhat lower.

My own home is only 1250 sq ft and a RA2 system fit the bill perfectly. I have 3 keypads (Front Door, Garage Door and Master Bedroom and will add a 4th hybrid keypad to the kitchen when released) and about 20 loads. I use the free automation controller program "EventGhost" as my control system (I wrote a plugin for EventGhost for RA2). Since installing the RA2 system I have actually added some more loads. I added a ceiling fan and can lights to my master bedroom. I am adding a ceiling fan and can lights to the guest bedroom. Adding can lights to the kitchen and I'm seperating the center ceiling lights in the kitchen and dining room from the same switch.

It's like crack... stay away!!!

 

[yankeewired]

I have read about RA2 but have not got my hands on any devices yet. I thought homeworks was a hardwired system. Why would you be comparing a hardwired system to RA 2? I would like to here your opinions on why RA2 is a better product than UPB, INSTEON, JETSTREAM, Z WAVE, RA 1 ect.

I have replaced alot of insteon devices/systems, their newer stuff might be better but having seen so many failed devices I soured on them. I'm not a huge fan of mesh networks where control packets make multiple hops across devices and many operate in a crowded frequency range. In a mesh network if a device at a critical location in the home fails many other devices may no longer be able to communicate, whereas with a Ra system no device failure will cause other components not to function (save a repeater failure).

nwavguy has a nice recent post here on cocoontech where he talks about replacing his dying insteon system of 70+ devices here

http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php...;hl=zwave+sucks

Homeworks is a wired system but does have RF. If I were to build a new home for myself now I would choose a hardwired system. Dedicated connections trump RF any day of the week IMHO.

I don't know anything abut Jetstream.

RA1 is right out. There is no reason to sell anyone a RA device except to support an existing system. It has less features and costs more then RA2

I think it is universally accepted that RA2 is the eminent RF system but it comes at a price premium over some other systems.

I believe RA 2 has dimmers available with or without a neutral , I'm not familiar with all the other companies but do you know of any that work without neutrals? Is the RA 2 performance the same with or without a neutral? This feature alone puts RA 2 at the top of my list. Also I think if this product has solid performance and quality than I'm not really sure I'd call it a premium. What was your experience on RA 1? Have the RA 1 dimmers lasted for years ?

 

[Fiasco]

P.S. Everything you could want to know about RA's devices can be found by scrolling to the bottom of this page

Devices, Integration Protocols, Consumer Brochures, Setup Guides and RF Technology white papers.

http://radiora2.com/training.html

 

[Fiasco]

I have read about RA2 but have not got my hands on any devices yet. I thought homeworks was a hardwired system. Why would you be comparing a hardwired system to RA 2? I would like to here your opinions on why RA2 is a better product than UPB, INSTEON, JETSTREAM, Z WAVE, RA 1 ect.

I have replaced alot of insteon devices/systems, their newer stuff might be better but having seen so many failed devices I soured on them. I'm not a huge fan of mesh networks where control packets make multiple hops across devices and many operate in a crowded frequency range. In a mesh network if a device at a critical location in the home fails many other devices may no longer be able to communicate, whereas with a Ra system no device failure will cause other components not to function (save a repeater failure).

nwavguy has a nice recent post here on cocoontech where he talks about replacing his dying insteon system of 70+ devices here

http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php...;hl=zwave+sucks

Homeworks is a wired system but does have RF. If I were to build a new home for myself now I would choose a hardwired system. Dedicated connections trump RF any day of the week IMHO.

I don't know anything abut Jetstream.

RA1 is right out. There is no reason to sell anyone a RA device except to support an existing system. It has less features and costs more then RA2

I think it is universally accepted that RA2 is the eminent RF system but it comes at a price premium over some other systems.

I believe RA 2 has dimmers available with or without a neutral , I'm not familiar with all the other companies but do you know of any that work without neutrals? Is the RA 2 performance the same with or without a neutral? This feature alone puts RA 2 at the top of my list. Also I think if this product has solid performance and quality than I'm not really sure I'd call it a premium. What was your experience on RA 1? Have the RA 1 dimmers lasted for years ?

Yes, RA has dimmers available with or without a neutral. Neutral wire dimmers have the letter N in the product code. The RA switch requires a neutral.

RRD-6D (two wire 600w dimmer no neutral)
RRD-10D (two wire 1000w dimmer no neutral)
RRD-10ND (1000w dimmer w/ neutral)

The difference between a neutral wire dimmer and one without is that a neutral wire dimmer is truly "off" when it is off. A two wire dimmer when off still passes a little current because it doesn't have the neutral wire to complete the electrical circuit. The two wire dimmer will pass just enough juice to self power but not enough to illuminate a light bulb connected to it.

So for an example.

Lets say you have a dimmer with a neutral wire that controls an outlet with a lamp hooked up to it. If you remove the bulb or unplug the lamp the neutral wire dimmer will still illuminate and the RA2 repeater will be able to find it during programming. The neutral wire dimmer still has a complete circuit because it has the neutral.

If you have the same scenerio with a two wire dimmer controlling a lamp with no bulb you will find that the two wire dimmer is no longer powered because it can't pass trickle current through the bulb. The light fixture is required to complete the circuit. I would not use dimmable CFL's on a two wire dimmer. You will end up with some funky flicker effect from the bulbs. If two wire dimmer controlled receptacle with a lamp on it and you turn the lamp off at the lamp instead of the switch the two wire dimmer will become unpowered. Not a big deal. You would have to turn the lamp back on at the lamp regardless of what type of switch you had (good old manual switch even).

I would only use the two wire dimmer in locations where there is no neutral in the box or for cost savings to maintain your lighting control system budget. The availability of a neutral wire in the box is determined by how the electrician wired your house. If he brought power into the light fixture first and then a "switch leg" to the switch box you will not have a neutral. If he brought power into the switch box first and then a "switch leg" from the box to the light fixture you will have a neutral.

My preference when wiring a house is to have power come into the switch first. It's alot easier to stand on the ground at a switch box to work on/troubleshoot a circuit then it is on a ladder and have to remove a fixture for access.

 

[yankeewired]

I have read about RA2 but have not got my hands on any devices yet. I thought homeworks was a hardwired system. Why would you be comparing a hardwired system to RA 2? I would like to here your opinions on why RA2 is a better product than UPB, INSTEON, JETSTREAM, Z WAVE, RA 1 ect.

I have replaced alot of insteon devices/systems, their newer stuff might be better but having seen so many failed devices I soured on them. I'm not a huge fan of mesh networks where control packets make multiple hops across devices and many operate in a crowded frequency range. In a mesh network if a device at a critical location in the home fails many other devices may no longer be able to communicate, whereas with a Ra system no device failure will cause other components not to function (save a repeater failure).

nwavguy has a nice recent post here on cocoontech where he talks about replacing his dying insteon system of 70+ devices here

http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php...;hl=zwave+sucks

Homeworks is a wired system but does have RF. If I were to build a new home for myself now I would choose a hardwired system. Dedicated connections trump RF any day of the week IMHO.

I don't know anything abut Jetstream.

RA1 is right out. There is no reason to sell anyone a RA device except to support an existing system. It has less features and costs more then RA2

I think it is universally accepted that RA2 is the eminent RF system but it comes at a price premium over some other systems.

I believe RA 2 has dimmers available with or without a neutral , I'm not familiar with all the other companies but do you know of any that work without neutrals? Is the RA 2 performance the same with or without a neutral? This feature alone puts RA 2 at the top of my list. Also I think if this product has solid performance and quality than I'm not really sure I'd call it a premium. What was your experience on RA 1? Have the RA 1 dimmers lasted for years ?

Yes, RA has dimmers available with or without a neutral. Neutral wire dimmers have the letter N in the product code. The RA switch requires a neutral.

RRD-6D (two wire 600w dimmer no neutral)
RRD-10D (two wire 1000w dimmer no neutral)
RRD-10ND (1000w dimmer w/ neutral)

The difference between a neutral wire dimmer and one without is that a neutral wire dimmer is truly "off" when it is off. A two wire dimmer when off still passes a little current because it doesn't have the neutral wire to complete the electrical circuit. The two wire dimmer will pass just enough juice to self power but not enough to illuminate a light bulb connected to it.

So for an example.

Lets say you have a dimmer with a neutral wire that controls an outlet with a lamp hooked up to it. If you remove the bulb or unplug the lamp the neutral wire dimmer will still illuminate and the RA2 repeater will be able to find it during programming. The neutral wire dimmer still has a complete circuit because it has the neutral.

If you have the same scenerio with a two wire dimmer controlling a lamp with no bulb you will find that the two wire dimmer is no longer powered because it can't pass trickle current through the bulb. The light fixture is required to complete the circuit. I would not use dimmable CFL's on a two wire dimmer. You will end up with some funky flicker effect from the bulbs. If two wire dimmer controlled receptacle with a lamp on it and you turn the lamp off at the lamp instead of the switch the two wire dimmer will become unpowered. Not a big deal. You would have to turn the lamp back on at the lamp regardless of what type of switch you had (good old manual switch even).

I would only use the two wire dimmer in locations where there is no neutral in the box or for cost savings to maintain your lighting control system budget. The availability of a neutral wire in the box is determined by how the electrician wired your house. If he brought power into the light fixture first and then a "switch leg" to the switch box you will not have a neutral. If he brought power into the switch box first and then a "switch leg" from the box to the light fixture you will have a neutral.

My preference when wiring a house is to have power come into the switch first. It's alot easier to stand on the ground at a switch box to work on/troubleshoot a circuit then it is on a ladder and have to remove a fixture for access.

Thanks for your responses. I checked out the link and the keypads appear to have no local load on them. Is that what the yet to be released "hybrid keypad" will be designed to do?