Ra2 is a game changer - i have the hook up

[Fiasco]

Thanks for your responses. I checked out the link and the keypads appear to have no local load on them. Is that what the yet to be released "hybrid keypad" will be designed to do?

That is correct. Keypads require a neutral wire! The hybrid keypad will be able to control a local load so it is a direct replacement for a switch/dimmer. I will check the specs on the Hybrid but I assume that it does not require a neutral wire (don't quote me on that yet though) since it could pass current like a two wire dimmer to self power.

Regular keypads are good for the following locations where no new wiring or addition of a box is necessary.

1 end of a 3 way switch (use a regular dimmer at one end of the three way to control the load and a keypad at the other)
To replace a switch that switches a receptacle (you lose switching of the receptacle but can get it back with a RA lamp dimmer module)

In my house I have a 3 gang at the front door (living room lights, front porch, lamp receptacle). I wanted a keypad there so I abandoned the switch leg for the receptacle and used the location for the keypad.

Similarly my basement entrance is at the bottom of the stairs. So, I put a dimmer at the top and a keypad at the bottom.

In my master bedroom I also had a switched receptacle which I abandoned to put in the keypad. I regained control over those bedside lamps with a lamp dimmer plugin module.

In my kitchen I have no such luxury so to put a keypad there I must use a hybrid keypad to switch the load or else I would have to remove the single gang box and put in a dual gang (1 for the switch and 1 for the keypad).

The hybrid keypad is more expensive then the standard keypad.

 

[Fiasco]

BTW I believe the hybrid keypad will be released in june.

 

[Steve]

The reason for comparison is based on the end result, which is the best looking keypads available in over 30 colors, controlling loads with extreme reliability. Upb docent offer a keypad I would install in my customers homes, Insteon has better looking keypads than upb, but is less reliable...

Well, remember - beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I have found over the years here they there is a wide array of tastes when it comes to the aesthetics of switches. The surest way to kill your business is to put in what YOU like and not what your CUSTOMERS like. Sure, you are the pro and you need to make sure whatever you are putting in is good quality, reliable, etc. There are literally thousands of pro installers out there that would disagree about the quality or style of UPB with you. In fact, many people, including myself like the UPB stuff way better than Insteon. Become an expert and certified in a few different technologies and let your customers be your guide...

I'm not a huge fan of mesh networks where control packets make multiple hops across devices and many operate in a crowded frequency range. In a mesh network if a device at a critical location in the home fails many other devices may no longer be able to communicate, whereas with a Ra system no device failure will cause other components not to function (save a repeater failure).

I admit I don't know anything about Ra2 besides the theory and what I've read but I think I would (but could be wrong - RF experts please chime in) debate your conclusion. While I think you are right about the 1 device bringing down many in a mesh you neglect to bring up the opposite which in fact is good design. Proper design and layout of the mesh will be critical to the reliability just like proper design of the Ra2 system would be. A mesh is designed for exactly the opposite situation so that if any device fails, there is another path to the destination. If you have a location where there is only one device in a critical path to several more device then that is not a mesh and is poor design. A properly designed and installed mesh should be ultra reliable and should accommodate the loss of even several nodes without impacting the rest of the system. Compare that to a repeater based system. The most obvious as you did state, a repeater failure. That failure would in fact take down many devices. Take also RF blockage. In the mesh if something were to block the signal from 1 switch to another (and don't think it can't happen) then there should always be another path around it and the system stays working. In a point to point/repeater system, if there is any blockage that comes up it will effectively take down anything on the other side of the blockage. I don't know for certain but I would also assume a point to point system that has to cover greater distances may have more powerful (RF) switches. I know I have brought this up several times about how much RF is flooding our houses and is not the best for health. If Ra2 devices in fact spit out more RF that would also be a negative in my book. But many people don't think about or care about that.

And just to touch on the above comment about aesthetics, you know, my house has blue all over the place already as far as LEDs and stuff go, so I prefer my switches to have blue LEDs or backlighting. If Ra2 is so progressive, why are they still stuck on single color green LEDs? Almost all other manufactures either have blue or a multicolor/choice. Maybe I'm crazy, but if Ra2 was *that* good I would consider swapping my stuff as well, but the Green LED would be a deal killer. I know that's also a highly personal thing, but it can factor in.

 

[Fiasco]

The reason for comparison is based on the end result, which is the best looking keypads available in over 30 colors, controlling loads with extreme reliability. Upb docent offer a keypad I would install in my customers homes, Insteon has better looking keypads than upb, but is less reliable...

Well, remember - beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I have found over the years here they there is a wide array of tastes when it comes to the aesthetics of switches. The surest way to kill your business is to put in what YOU like and not what your CUSTOMERS like. Sure, you are the pro and you need to make sure whatever you are putting in is good quality, reliable, etc. There are literally thousands of pro installers out there that would disagree about the quality or style of UPB with you. In fact, many people, including myself like the UPB stuff way better than Insteon. Become an expert and certified in a few different technologies and let your customers be your guide...

I'm not a huge fan of mesh networks where control packets make multiple hops across devices and many operate in a crowded frequency range. In a mesh network if a device at a critical location in the home fails many other devices may no longer be able to communicate, whereas with a Ra system no device failure will cause other components not to function (save a repeater failure).

I admit I don't know anything about Ra2 besides the theory and what I've read but I think I would (but could be wrong - RF experts please chime in) debate your conclusion. While I think you are right about the 1 device bringing down many in a mesh you neglect to bring up the opposite which in fact is good design. Proper design and layout of the mesh will be critical to the reliability just like proper design of the Ra2 system would be. A mesh is designed for exactly the opposite situation so that if any device fails, there is another path to the destination. If you have a location where there is only one device in a critical path to several more device then that is not a mesh and is poor design. A properly designed and installed mesh should be ultra reliable and should accommodate the loss of even several nodes without impacting the rest of the system. Compare that to a repeater based system. The most obvious as you did state, a repeater failure. That failure would in fact take down many devices. Take also RF blockage. In the mesh if something were to block the signal from 1 switch to another (and don't think it can't happen) then there should always be another path around it and the system stays working. In a point to point/repeater system, if there is any blockage that comes up it will effectively take down anything on the other side of the blockage. I don't know for certain but I would also assume a point to point system that has to cover greater distances may have more powerful (RF) switches. I know I have brought this up several times about how much RF is flooding our houses and is not the best for health. If Ra2 devices in fact spit out more RF that would also be a negative in my book. But many people don't think about or care about that.

RA2 is in a completely different frequency spectrum. The spectrum Z-wave operates in permits continuous transmissios from cordless phones, wireless routers ect. Ra operates in a frequency range where brief low power transmissions are all thats allowed.

The white paper on RA RF is here

http://radiora2.com/pdf/Clear_Connect_RF_W...er_367-1234.pdf

I have seen mesh network systems in action where you hit a button and there is a noticable delay in a reaction I have never seen that from a Ra system. If you push a button on a RA system you can be 100% certain that the system will react immediately.

And just to touch on the above comment about aesthetics, you know, my house has blue all over the place already as far as LEDs and stuff go, so I prefer my switches to have blue LEDs or backlighting. If Ra2 is so progressive, why are they still stuck on single color green LEDs? Almost all other manufactures either have blue or a multicolor/choice. Maybe I'm crazy, but if Ra2 was *that* good I would consider swapping my stuff as well, but the Green LED would be a deal killer. I know that's also a highly personal thing, but it can factor in.

The best looking RA and HW keypads are the dark colors. They keypads are engraved and the only illumination you see is the actual lettering on the keypad buttons. I don't think backlit light colors keypads look as good (from any manufacturer) where the whole button is illuminated and the lettering is dark.

 

[Esbelectric]

Steve - you are right, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and i dont think upb devices look bad at all, some brands look better than others, i just like the lutron engraved keypads better than what i have seen from upb, and from everything i have heard upb is really reliable, though i often wonder what happens when you have 4 or more panels. I think the blue leds is totally a personal preference, i personally dont like it but i still plan on using an hai omnipro 2 which has blue backlit keypads so i wont be without blue.

Fiasco - do you control any receptacles in your home, and if so which technology do you use. I am thinking of using upb for that. Also you made some great points about why ra2 is different from the other rf technologies, the most important in my opinion being the fact that ra2's frequency is limited to 5 second bursts i believe, which makes it unsuitable for alot of the other devices that could cause interference. Also couldn't agree more about the dark keypads looking the best.

 

[Fiasco]

For receptacles I use the RRD-3LD-XX tabletop lamp dimmer.

I hide these. I don't care to see this particular device since the attached lamp is integrated via either RA keypad or my iPhone remote control (via CommandFusion).

I would really like to see Lutron come out with a direct receptacle replacement and have voiced that to my Lutron rep. The nice thing about the RRD-3LD is that the homeowner can move the lamp across the room and it remains programmed in the system which would be an advantage over having a direct receptacle replacement.

However, for someone like me, you or most of the visitors to this forum moving a receptacle to a new location to maintain programming would be a non-issue.

With HW8 you can homerun a receptacle (usually split the receptacle w/ 1 outlet on all the time and the other controlled by HW) or use a maestro and w/ HW4 you can run a receptacle to a wall box power module or a maestro.

Lutron makes a special receptacle and matching cord plug which has a bump on it to prevent pluging in inductive loads like a vacuum cleaners which is a no-no (when that receptacle is controlled by a dimming RPM (HW8) or Wallbox Power Module (HW4)). Inductive loads are not a problem for a neutral wire switch or relay RPM (HW8).

You can do the same w/ RA and a switched receptacle via maestro. I just like to abandon the maestro switch location for a receptacle if I need a keypad since it reduces labor and wall clutter by not having to cut in a new box. If the homeowner wants control over that receptacle a RRD-3LD can be adding to the system at no labor cost and no extra material cost (since you would have had to use a maestro to control the receptacle anyway)

On RA installs where tight budget contraints are not an issue and a closet/pantry is on the rear facing wall of a multigang switch box I like to spin the box around to the pantry/closet and install a keypad in a single gang to replace the multigang box and patch the drywall. I dislike multigang switch boxes. They are ugly and unnecessarily clutter the wall and introduce confusion/unnecessary complexity when there is a keypad in the same gang box .

 

[yankeewired]

So is it anyone's opinion from experience that the RA2 is the best performance of the other competing technologies?

 

[Esbelectric]

sorry i should have been clearer, i would like to turn off non lighting loads, like av equipment, etc. i would want to hook a dimmer up to any of that

 

[Esbelectric]

wouldn't want to hook up a dimmer to any of that is what i meant to say

 

[Steve]

I have seen mesh network systems in action where you hit a button and there is a noticable delay in a reaction I have never seen that from a Ra system. If you push a button on a RA system you can be 100% certain that the system will react immediately.

I understand the concern there. All I can speak for is Zigbee/Jetstream from experience. While it is in the same band as WiFi, etc, there are several channels to choose from. I have not had any interference or anything that I can tell. As far as delay, they are also all instant. In fact, Jetstream is better than UPB in that regard. UPB suffers from the 'popcorn effect' when doing a scene/all on or off. You will see light come on or off in a seemingly random pattern around the house over the course of as few seconds. With Jetstream all the light react simultaneously and virtually instantly. I only have a small number of Jetstream at the moment so perhaps its different with large numbers but not from what I've heard.

Does Lutron make an in-line relay or dimmer module? That would also be a killer for me and it also a reason why I maintain a hybrid Jetstream and UPB network. UPB (or others not being discussed) have more more product available than some like Jetstream and maybe? Ra2? Without outlets, inline modules, etc the product line is too limiting.

 

[Fiasco]

So is it anyone's opinion from experience that the RA2 is the best performance of the other competing technologies?

I think so. But I am Lutron HW and RA certified so weigh my opinion with that in mind. In my experience (albeit some of the competing systems I have never seen action) RA is 100% reliable which is what is really required of a lighting system. Lighting in a home is mission critical. If the lighting control system isn't 100% reliable it is a downgrade from a mechanical switch.

Lutrons software is intuative, easy to use and the RS232 protocol is simple and concise.

 

[Fiasco]

Does Lutron make an in-line relay or dimmer module? That would also be a killer for me and it also a reason why I maintain a hybrid Jetstream and UPB network. UPB (or others not being discussed) have more more product available than some like Jetstream and maybe? Ra2? Without outlets, inline modules, etc the product line is too limiting.

Could you be more specific on what you mean by "inline"?

For switching loads greater then the limit of a RA switch we use lighting contactors. The RA switch only has to pass enough current to energize the coil in the contactor to engage the switch with the contactor handling the actual load.

Could you switch a parking lot full of 200W sodium hallide fixtures with a RA switch? Coupled with a contactor, absolutely.

Or, say you wanted to control a mechanical pool filter with RA. You would use a contactor inline with the RA switch and take advantage of RA's timeclock to schedule your filter. The same would apply to an outdoor hottub.

 

[Fiasco]

sorry i should have been clearer, i would like to turn off non lighting loads, like av equipment, etc. i would want to hook a dimmer up to any of that

Ahh kill those parasitic loads!

Yes, you could use a neutral wire RA switch for that purpose.

On a side note I just completed the installation of 14 Lutron QED shades (the apartment I was working on now has 21 powered shades).

I do enjoy working with this stuff.

 

[Fiasco]

Here is our youtube channel. I uploaded a video of some of the shades from todays project

http://www.youtube.com/JAGLLC

 

[Steve]

This is what I mean by inline module. Something that goes somewhere in the line and is controlled either as part of a scene from a keypad or just automatically via automation. I rely on them for several areas where you don't have control via a wall switch. The come bother in dimmer modules and relay/contactor models. IMHO a lighting system is not complete without something like these. Some people 'cheat' and take a regular switch and pull the button off of it and use it in a box inline but that not the same as a dedicated module.