Relay in a box

[fabriziojoe]

I just purchased a relay in a box (RIB) and have never used a relay before.
The model in question is the RIB01SBDC.
For the most part the connections look pretty straight forward, but I do have some concerns. The purpose of this RIB is to control the on/off function of another device. So I need to supply 120v on the black and white wires. The dry contact is wht/red and wht/blu and the 120v output is on orange.
This input will be initiated from an Omni, so do I connect the input to an omni output? If so do I need to pulse the output for x amount of time or does the relay need constant power to operate? Thanks

View attachment RIB01SBDC.pdf

 

[apostolakisl]

I just purchased a relay in a box (RIB) and have never used a relay before.
The model in question is the RIB01SBDC.
For the most part the connections look pretty straight forward, but I do have some concerns. The purpose of this RIB is to control the on/off function of another device. So I need to supply 120v on the black and white wires. The dry contact is wht/red and wht/blu and the 120v output is on orange.
This input will be initiated from an Omni, so do I connect the input to an omni output? If so do I need to pulse the output for x amount of time or does the relay need constant power to operate? Thanks

View attachment 3514

This does not appear to be a latching relay so you will need to keep currnet flowing to the control side of the relay to keep it closed.

It is listing 120 vac 42 ma for the control side of the relay. I don't know much about omni systems, but if it is like most home automation systems, it is not going to have 120 vac outputs. Usually 5 or 12 volts dc for stuff like that. If this is the case, you should get yourself a new relay that is rated for whatever voltage and current type (ac or dc) the omni puts out.

The point of a relay like this is not to switch a high voltage item with a low voltage control, but to switch a high current/high voltage item with a low current/high voltage control. And when I say high voltage I mean 120 or 220 volts and for high current I mean anything measured in units that don't start with "milli".

 

[WayneW]

It is listing 120 vac 42 ma for the control side of the relay. I don't know much about omni systems, but if it is like most home automation systems, it is not going to have 120 vac outputs. Usually 5 or 12 volts dc for stuff like that. If this is the case, you should get yourself a new relay that is rated for whatever voltage and current type (ac or dc) the omni puts out.

Umm, I took that 42 mA reading as the power draw of the RIB itself, which is fed from the constant 120VAC power. The actual control (wht/red & wht/blue) are simply a dry contact, which should work fine with the Omni, assuming they have relay outputs.

 

[apostolakisl]

It is listing 120 vac 42 ma for the control side of the relay. I don't know much about omni systems, but if it is like most home automation systems, it is not going to have 120 vac outputs. Usually 5 or 12 volts dc for stuff like that. If this is the case, you should get yourself a new relay that is rated for whatever voltage and current type (ac or dc) the omni puts out.

Umm, I took that 42 mA reading as the power draw of the RIB itself, which is fed from the constant 120VAC power. The actual control (wht/red & wht/blue) are simply a dry contact, which should work fine with the Omni, assuming they have relay outputs.

Yes, I see you are right. I assume then that the RIB detects the open/closed state of the dry contact leads (blue white/red white) with a 120vac 46 ma current running through the closed relay on the Omni. It might be worth ensuring that the relay on the Omni system is OK with 120vac. Of course if the omni has built in relays that are ok with 120 vac, they may be capable of directly controlling the target device without the RIB at all. My Elk relay board allows up to 10A at 120 VAC on each relay.

 

[Desert_AIP]

The HAI 4 and 8 relay boards have these limits:
5A at 24VAC or 30VDC maximum

Do not connect 120VAC to the Omni board 12V outputs.

 

[fabriziojoe]

Thanks for all of the input thus far. Can someone that has implemented what I want to do, control a load via a relay with an omni, post your materials and a wiring diagram? I do not want to fry a controller!

Thanks

 

[gatchel]

Use a relay that has a lower voltage coil and that can handle the intended load. There are several brands and styles.

 

[gatchel]

This may be a better option than the other RIB you were looking at:

http://www.functionaldevices.com/building-...odel=RIB01SBCDC

It says it is controlled with dry contact input, aka your existing HAI relay.

 

[Steve]

You just want to control a 120V device on/off from your Omni, right? Don't make this more difficult than it is. I'd have to look at the other RIB's linked but all you need is a $12 RIBU1C. I do exactly what you are saying. I have 2 of them. 1 controls my LED pool light. I turn on and keep the output on to keep the light on or I can turn the output on/off a certain # of times to change colors, it works perfectly. The second one will control my landscape transformer as soon as my attic cools down and I can get a wire there. But its really easy, no high voltage at the HAI. You are simply using an Omni Output to toggle the relays load on/off. Notice I said Output, not relay. You don't need a relay, the RIB coil is connected directly to the Omni Output. Here are some pictures:

Wiring

Complete

The low voltage output connection is outside the box.

PS. If you use Firefox and get a 404 error, either highlight the link in the address bar and press Enter or press Ctrl_F5. I don't know why it gives a 404 in FF the first time.

 

[WayneW]

Can someone that has implemented what I want to do, control a load via a relay with an omni, post your materials and a wiring diagram? I do not want to fry a controller!

I suspect that the RIB you spec'ed will work fine, BUT you need to confirm with Functional Devices what the voltage in the wht/red & wht/blue dry contact are. I assume they are low voltage (and safe for the Omni), but technically they could be 110VAC (which would be bad for the Omni). Personally, I never think of 110VAC when I hear "dry contact", but I would not trust my assumptions.

On the other hand, the good old RIBU1C would do the trick for half the price (albeit without the manual control switch) and we can certainly show you how to hook it up.

Edit: added a missing "not"

 

[fabriziojoe]

So I just called the Functional Devices Inc and spoke with the engineer.
He stated that 120v is not present on the dry contacts and it is safe to connect to the omni.
With that being said I will give it a try. On the omni I will just connect to an output and then program the output to pulse or does it need to stay on constant? I guess it would be best to get a RIB that is a latching relay so constant power is not required? I like the RIBU1C that several people have mentioned, but it is only rated for 10amps. In addition, I will be mounting the RIB in an easily accessible location where I can use the manual override if a problem ever occurs with the omni output. Thanks for all the input thus far-greatly appreciated!

Thanks

Joe

 

[WayneW]

There are two kind of latching relays (similar to IR codes for TVs, etc)... One type is simply a toggle, so that every time you apply power to the coil, the output changes. Somewhat easy to lose track of the "state" of the relay and be doing the wrong thing at the wrong time The other type has two inputs (and would require two Omni outputs).. one pulse would turn it on and one pulse on the other lead would turn it off.

A standard relay or RIB draws very little power, so there isn't really an issue leaving it on for long periods. If you are planning on having it "on" more than 80-90% of the time, you may want to consider reversing your logic... use the NC terminals of the relay and activate the Omni output when you want the load to be "off".

 

[apostolakisl]

Ditto on Wayne W. I wouldn't mess with a latching relay. To do it right you would need to use up two of the low voltage relays on your Omni (one on/one off). The power consumption is miniscule (46 ma).

The RIB must have a built in transformer if the dry contact voltage is not 120 vac.

You might consider a cheaper option. On my elk, I have a wall wart that provides me 12 vdc (free since most people have a spare sitting around). I have 24 relays on 3 elk expansion boards. These relays can handle 120vac on their own, but since the controlled devices are at some distance, it is much easier to run low voltage to the location of the controlled device and use a second relay to switch the 120 volts at the target device. When the Elk closes the relay, it passes 12vdc (from the wall wart) to the second relay controlling the device, closing it's contacts, passing the locally supplied 120vac through to the target device. The relays consume very little juice so the one wall wart can easily handle as many relays as I would ever need. I have used relays I bought on ebay for $7 and they work flawlessly.

So, in short, you would need a spool of low voltage wire to cover the distance from your Omni to your target device, a $7 relay, and a wall wart. With this you can switch on/off any 120 vac 15 amp or less target device. For a few dollars more you can buy 240 vac 30 amp relays. This assumes your Omni has an available low voltage relay.

 

[mthurs27]

I'm considering doing the same thing, but just to clarify, do you need another relay on the elk to control the RIB? If so, what is the purpose of this relay and why is it not good to just wire the relay directly into an elk output?

Thanks,
Michael